Hey guys. Remember the Ecler Evo5?
That beast of a mixer, which I immediately jumped on as soon as it hit the streets back in 2008, came with the following feature set at release:
- 5 channels with post-fader effects
- Built-in, DVS-enabled firewire audio interface (Traktor certified, 2 Firewire ports)
- Built-in RGB display driven by an onboard unix operating system for full standalone operation
- Digital control over CF/line fader cut-in and curves
- MIDI output on every single button, encoder and fader
- Ability to edit, store and recall custom MIDI mappings on the unit
- Various internal effects with BPM-synced LFOs/patterns
- Ability to edit, store and recall custom effect presets on the unit
My point: that was TEN YEARS AGO.
TEN. YEARS. AGO.
I’m stressing this ALLCAPS style, because a lot of the people out there haven’t even been in the game that long. And while we’re at it…
Remember the Numark V7?
Released just 2 years later (in 2010), this was basically the first NS7 without the mixer part. That is, an external Serato deck controller with:
- Two deck layers
- Individual audio outputs per deck, allowing it to be connected to any mixer
- 7″ motorized platters (with a TTX motor, which delivers more than twice the torque of a Technics 1210)
- Individually adjustable platter start/stop time
- Search strip for “needle dropping”
- Browsing/loading encoder
- Loop controls
- Hot cue pads
- Effect controls
- Bleep/reverse switch (same as on the CDX/HDX)
My first thought back then was:
“Wouldn’t it be cool if the next version of this became a 10″ or 12″ standalone unit with limited internal storage or a USB slot, allowing me to load scratch sounds directly – or even better, ANY timecode audio file, allowing me to control whichever DVS I want?”.
As a proof of concept, I ran the V7 through Serato Itch, loaded Traktor timecode files into both decks there, and then hooked the V7s’ outputs up to a NI Audio8 box. It worked flawlessly, but I decided that with a pair of PDX3000s and the Evo5 at my disposal, it just wasn’t worth the trouble.
Then I thought:
“Man, if this took some inspiration from the Vestax Controller One, or at least accepted MIDI input for pitch control like the PDX3000, it could seriously raise the bar. Heck, it already has a USB port, just add that functionality to the firmware…”
Pretty sure I wasn’t the only one thinking all those things either. I don’t believe I’m smarter than you. It really seems like a no-brainer after taking just one good long look at the unit. So, who pulled the plug on making this awesome and decided to keep it so utterly basic, and why was that decision made (again)? Entertain that thought for a second: how much better would such a product sell if it weren’t tied to a single platform and actually became an advanced performance tool that can adapt to anyone’s workflow of choice?
It’s in your hands… I mean your wallet
A decade later, the industry can’t stop throwing around words like “revolutionary” and “game-changer”, when the products that they push onto the market not only have been done – but in many cases have been done better, a very long time ago.
It seems like even (or perhaps especially) the brands which have incredible budgets at their disposal simply lack the balls to release a product that would really push the envelope, challenging both the market and the users alike – and instead choose to play it safe, regurgitating the same formula over and over again, which is just boring. I can’t help but be underwhelmed by the lack of truly ambitious, next-gen DJ gear.
As a tech enthusiast who loves to go into ridiculous detail about the amazing things you can do with the right combination of hardware and software… what the heck am I even supposed to write in a review or news piece if things don’t start changing?
“This new thing does exactly the same thing as those twenty other things that have been available for the last couple of years. Honestly, just go by the colour or something, it doesn’t matter.”
The problem is: I still care. A lot. But I’m also just one guy writing words – I can’t change a thing on my own. Luckily, when they’re not busy fighting over which computer / DVS / controller / mixer / laundry detergent is better (Ariel DJ 4 lyfe — Ed), DJs are actually a strong community… so here’s some food for thought.
Remember that as a consumer, you vote with your money. Don’t succumb to celebrity-driven hype — instead, take the time to really evaluate what that new thing you’re looking at does (we’re here to help you with that!), and consider if it’s really that big an upgrade over your existing setup. Do that before you whip out your credit card, then sleep over it and do it again. Because in most cases, the answer will likely be a decisive, resounding NO.
If we make that NO reflect in numbers on the industry’s end, maybe someone out there will put the right people in charge – people who’ll finally do something bold and exciting again. Because it’s about damned time.
And hey – if (I really want to say “when”) this happens, we’ll take care of the hype part ourselves.
This made me think straight away about ticks of revolution – the magic number back in the ns7 days was 3600 and i believe 8 years later the Rane Twelve has the same amount… i’m no technician so i’m not sure if that is the upper limit of whats achievable, so my point maybe moot but that to me is an example of very little progression in 8 years…
Also r.i.p. ecler… their nuo range was damn fine in my experience
The fact that the Rane Twelve and the NS7 have the same platter resolution has a lot more to do with the fact that they’re produced by the same parent company. As far as resolution limits go, you can achieve much higher resolutions. But as it stands, 4000 ticks (or 3600) is super overkill for the application. For a 12″ platter, the circumference is 38 inches, or 965 millimeters. So that’s 3.7 ticks PER MILLIMETER of travel.
Thank you for clarifying that. I was pretty sure my old vci380 had the same resolution, so i was starting to wonder if anything more was overkill… it would seem it probably is then
Didn’t we talk about this very topic when you were over? :-D
Can the software understand teo separate midi messages at exactly the same time? Let’s say i want to grab the platter and cue a hot cue precisely together, does one midi message have to take precendence over the other?
Maybe the platter should be something other than midi?
Great article/opinions. Always liked the ecler but was out of my price range. Would love to see a motorized platter with storage! I’ve been holding out on any change to my set up to see if NI is directing any money from investors to Traktor – specifically an all in one like xdj-rx. Otherwise I’m ready for a pioneer djm750 and media players with USB sticks. I don’t want a laptop in my set up anymore. And I’ll be able to record mixes and add line-in instruments like my TR-8 using the djm mixer. On top of all that, if I wanted to, I can still connect to dvs with the djm mixer.
> motorized platter with storage
Been done. Denon HS5500 back in 2008. I’d still be using mine if it wasn’t for the size restriction on the internal HDD.
Most of what’s available now has been around for a bit now. I think a new iteration of a controller like that is due
There is absolutely no comparing the 5500 and the V7 in terms of motor power. I know, because I’ve owned the 3500.
I’m not disputing that, just responding to the comment about a motorized platter with storage. I’ve had no issues doing a little bit of wiki wiki on the 5500 though :-)
What about Numark HDX?
I still own 2 EVO 5s, and I don’t plan on upgrading anytime soon. I have long outgrown the audio interface portion (only 32 bit drivers), but having every single control MIDI mappable to any values you want has been extremely helpful. I have considered new mixers many times, but none of them have the functionality that these do, so I stick with them If I could change a few things, it would be a better mic preamp, DSP routing of the audio interface, and control of the mixer functions via MIDI in.
Well, the mixer that ultimately ended up replacing the Evo5 for me was the Rane Sixty-Four. While it doesn’t have a screen, it destroys EVERY other mixer with its ridiculously stable MIDI clock and audio routing flexibility. Pushing a signal between two laptops, or even locally to tie in DAW effects into a DJ set… or capture unlimited loops with Ableton Live (at latencies that beat out even my Fireface UFX+) is just glorious.
Yeah, but without 44.1kHz sample rate, it’s not useful to me. And beating out a UFX+? What latency are you achieving, as I find that a very bold statement to make. Is this measured latency, or software reported? Tell me more!
If we ignore the internal signal propagation latency (SPL) of the hardware itself, calculating the “optimistic” round-trip latency (RTL) goes like this: (buffer size/sample rate)*2.
For the actual real-life RTL, I’d say you have to add approx. 3ms to account for the SPL.
On my system, the Fireface UFX+ handles 256 samples at 48 kHz without dropouts even in a relatively big Ableton Live project. That’s 10.6ms.
Meanwhile, the Sixty-Four does 96 samples at 48 kHz comfortably when “just” DJing on 3 decks with basic DAW effects looped in. That’s 4ms. When doing more complicated stuff with 2 machines, I run it at 192 samples (8ms) for headroom, because I frankly can’t hear the difference (and I don’t think anyone really can).
Keep in mind that the Sixty-Four is permanently locked to 48kHz. I assume you need 44.1kHz for aggregating your interface with devices like the iPad?
To be fair, I haven’t had this particular Fireface long enough to experiment more with its settings, but I also don’t feel the need to do so at all. The actual RTL should be around 12ms, and that’s absolutely fine.
Also, let there be no mistake: the Fireface UFX+ just RAPES EVERYTHING in terms of driver functionality. Its flexibility and stability is completely amazing. Comparing the two is very much “apples and oranges”, except the Sixty-Four is a beautifully-carved wooden apple when the Fireface is a flawless orange-shaped diamond.
If you’re interested in the actual numbers, I can run a few tests with an RTL measuring tool on all of my laptops. But it’s simple math and a bit of common sense, so I’m probably not far off.
Then again, @nem0nic:disqus knows a LOT more about these things than I do, and could probably say something super smart to educate us both…
Update: measured RTL on the Fireface is 11.792 (256 samples / 48kHz).
Software reports 12.25 (rounded to 12.3).
Voting with my money would be cool, but what if there’s no alternatives to throw money at?
I’m kinda stuck.
I want a simple thing:
A modular jog controller (passive!) for Traktor.
It should be full-sized, have a center display (Pioneer style or HD), a reasonable main display, basic transport controls, loop and beatjump, and 8 performance pads.
That’s not too much to ask for.
But there is none.
The reason why is because it does not make sense from a business point of view for Pioneer and InMusic.
That is the general problem (not only) in the DJ industry: There is no social element in business strategies.
Closed eco systems have been the way to go for a long time.
No company is truly interested in making a cross platform device to make the end user happy.
They all want your money, and all of it – they don’t just want a slice of your available budget.
And the only way to achieve that in a satisfied market is to shut off competition.
That and playing safe vs inventing new ideas (see the “success” of remix decks or stems) is what makes this industry such a creativity killer.
Sounds like you just described the Denon Prime players. They genuinely feel like mixing on standalone traktor hardware, it’s kindof nuts.
Yep, they kind of feel like Traktor, that’s what I really liked about them.
But I’m not ready to give up on a decade of work invested in Traktor:
Hundreds of playlists, thousands of gridded tracks, ten thousands of cues and loops.
Also I’d miss the internal effects!
As there is no smooth way of transitioning between Engine and Traktor I’ll have to stay with the latter for now.
If only they added native support…
I loved the V7. I wish that it could be utilized in 4 deck setups. That was relaly the one thing that held it back from continually being a well sold piece of gear.
Love the article ! I have started a few years ago collecting old gears that I couldn’t afford back then, finding myself reading again the Skratchworx archives and so on… I still have a V7, now have a CDX, a SLDZ, and wishing for SCS1D !
For any new gear out there now, I try (as yourself) to see what it really brings to the table, and most of the time it’s just a few things there and there but not that much. You always feel that they didn’t went far enough : for instance the XDJ-RX2 should have been a standalone DDJ1000, thousands of people are waiting for it to happened !!!
Also the Rane Twelve can’t unlock Serato (as a V7) for such a high price ??? Not even a controller, only an accessory !
I was waiting for a controller with CDJ jog size since the VCI 100 (still got one btw), guess what happened when the DDJ 1000 came out ? I bought one without even thinking, because this was a long due wish. So yes, I’m paying with my money…sort of… ><
Hey Spark972, you wanna mess with some SCS.1D? I have a pair and an SCS.1M. Add me on Facebook!
Ecler were ahead of their time. The ecler Nuo4 was the first analogue dj mixer with midi controls. Or thats what they sold me at least…
I think Allen&heat were first around 2001-03 influenced by Richie Hawting and Ableton Live since AFAIR it was the only solution available in 2001-03 when I was searching for midi crossfader to scratch video alongside audio in Ms. Pinky that time. I started researching cheap electronic solutions to mod mixers after check prices (near 1500€ for Xone whatever). Maybe DJM 700/800 came first. I can told you since these were out of radar..
In that time Ecler was still in the HAQ era more than NUO and midi. The cheapest solution for that time was behringer bcd2000 so researching a bit we can find the timeframe. In fact I can go to my FM collection and search for it (if these number magazine aren’t missing).
Anyways Ecler midi integration was poor so the first usable as standard digital mixing unit for ableton/traktor by far was a Xone. The cheapest bangforbuck behringer ddm4000.
great article! I took a step back as well and I don’t NEED a nexus setup how cool and great it is. My traktor driven sets can work very well with a set of CDJ400’s that are widely available on the second hand market for a very good price…
The 400s are completely underappreciated, I feel.
The V7 was and still is ahead of it’s time. The new rane 12 is just a bigger version of old technology for twice the price of a used V7. The V7 is built like a tank and work flawlessly with SDJ. Had they made them HID with Traktor, it would have been a killer. Shoot, if they could read music from an external source like USB drive/stick it would make them even better. I still have my V7s, heavy to transport but extremely reliable. If Denon would just upgrade them or the firmware to run with Traktor too and more, it would probably still sell. Folks are still drooling over Biz Markie’s 45 custom technics, so there is a market for motorized but lighter portable decks. Perhaps someone can modify them to add more features?
Yep, what I said. Any unit like that should have its own audio outputs and some form or storage, or at least a way to connect external storage. What really irks me about this is: the people designing these things aren’t stupid, they must have been aware of it. I bet this was a decision enforced from above, by the beancounters. And those people should generally stay away from product design.
Careful now, old jack already did the freemason flex and brought out shaq(code to other masons) and the vid said “warning” – when they say warning, they aint playin, they serious.
Bro, it’s Shaqtablism, get with the program bro. BRO!
Luckily , it was just Shaq, but when you see Jack White in a Rane vid, then you’ll know it’s “serious.”
them folks is a whole other can of worms.
Exactly. Market segmentation and compromises…
Ecler should be back, had great, well thought products.
They screwed the pooch on their exit from the market though.
I was promised 64-bit drivers for the Evo5 – they never came, so I chased them about it very aggressively (as anyone would after spending 1800 EUR on a mixer).
In the end, Ecler didn’t deliver and also denied handing out sources so the community could come up with a driver on their own, all in order to “protect the intellectual property of the brand”. Well, your brand is DEAD, so why not at least be classy about supporting those who supported it – especially as you’ve used Unix for you internal OS?
Long story short: that was an incredibly lame move.
I have V7. I would have liked 10-inch better than 7. It’s good for fast scratching, but I’ve caught it glitching when doing slow stuff like drags. I think the resolution of how many positions per rotation was too low. I liked the CDX, so I think it may be related to platter size. I still wish there was a 10-inch one. I love my 10-inch Serato control vinyl.
Hopefully now with Rane Twelve and the Phase wireless controllers, it is higher resolution.
Everyone is chasing software subscriptions. Why sell a deck or controller or mixer once when you can get $15 a month for life?
I actually don’t have a problem with software subscriptions, if the software is constantly being developed and upgraded. I’m quite happy with Adobe’s Creative Suite, for example.
Either subscriptions or paid updates.
I’d totally spend cash on reasonable Traktor updates!
I don’t mind subscriptions either. My point is I think the hardware makers don’t focus on hardware innovations as much any more because they are chasing software $$$.
Finantial crisis and dying niche.
The question isn’t “why Rane twelve wasn’t released 10 years ago”… the question should be “when it will make sense for target market and properly revenue flow”.
Since the graphs about target matket and revenue flow will never match the brands search for ways to “fool” users like putting Rane on the side of Numark product.
Anyways it’s a totally fail when users are asking for usb host support and the brand delivers even more old technology…
The weirdest part is that things seem t point Pioneer will be who release that standalone turntable (or something like Numark dashboard standalone solution).
Anyone remember the windows8 conference were Akai MpcX was shown? It was a NS7 prototype too… we have MpcX/live release but no clue about that other.
My bet: MpcX/live isn’t working properly in sales so smaller niche such “motorized turntable djing” is not going to work or “let’s try to sell bigger platter without soundcard to sell it to wider target than failed v7” so and so…
That mindset which never will bring what any of us will want (probably due we haven’t a real common product as target) or it’s just a analog turntable since scratching is fastest and technics inmortal…
I’m agree about costumer wallet as tool for send a message but diy is the other leg of that strategy and djing users have become “lazy” in that field (related to digital but focused in portablism) so it’s a cat and mice play…
All I’m saying is: if you’re putting so much R&D into a product, and your marketing department is as bold as calling it “the new standard”, maybe actually make something that is capable of becoming a standard in the first place.
A “standard” piece of gear can’t possibly be locked to a single piece of software or hardware. That’s mutually exclusive. You won’t see clubs buying a set of Twelves and Seventy-Twos – you may see a few turntablists who can afford to dish out this much money bringing those to battles, but that’s it.
Now, if I could slap Traktor timecode onto the Twelves, I’d probably be all over them – but as it stands, I’m not going to switch to Serato just to get rid of a needle. I can do that with the Phase at a tiny fraction of the price, and I’ll STILL have the needle as a backup in case there’s some issue with it.
I doubt DMC would even allow TWELVEs.
Did you not hear Tony wax lyrical (pun very much intended) about the sponsorship at the 2017 finals?
I agree. Logistically it would too difficult to have a pair of Twelves (plus a backup set) at every DMC regional. Also, most battle DJs aren’t going to want to perform a routine that they made and practiced on turntables just to get to a DMC competition and have to deal with gear they’ve never touched before. And lastly let’s not forget about the need to update drivers in order to use the Twelves and the 72. You can’t have everyone trying to update drivers on various computers at the battle. Not everyone will have access to the Twelves and a 72 to practice on and load drivers prior to a DMC competition. These reasons alone would alienate a lot of battle DJs and I could imagine the participation levels would drop dramatically.
I bet they’ll have a section of the contest specifcially for 12s
They barely allowed DVS well after it became standard. I doubt they’ll change just for one glorified midi controller. Why just the TWELVEs? Why not allow CDJs? It’ll scream ‘hypocrisy’.
Great benefit for both parties; inmusic gets legitimization of the device, and DMC gets something new and exciting to promote. Winner can claim to be “King of the 12s”
This is the way to solidify the device as a “new standard”
And its the very thing the DMC needs too.
They’d be crazy to let such a golden op pass.
People would buy the 12s to practice.
I guaran-damn-tee you, put that setup in my hands. I’ll redefine trick djing, reinvigorate the dmc, and sell so many 12s, there’ll be lines waiting on new shipments.
EF mfn Hutton
dude, you should set the deck up on electro-magnets, so they levitate!!
PREACH!!!!
You’re exactly right. Well said.
It doesn’t makes sense calling “standard” nothing motorized nowadays. In fact there isn’t a motorized market niche enough big to justify the investment for new product cappable to compete against technics and superOEMs.
My point was more about the lack if true “innovation” (includding pendrive support maybe) and related to that lack of market.
The gap for improvement isn’t in control surface were DVS is still the king of motorized solutions (more standard to previous setups instead trying to erase them). That’s why NI says “Future of sound” and have ditched jogs and they will not release something like this… D2/F1 are more in the track of innovation but also failed due to “closed-garden” and target audience.
Stagnation in djing field is for real and any brand is going to push the limits without revenue. It was risky before crisis, now is suicide…
Still have a korg zero 4
The firewire audio interface is useless to me at this point and the knobs are really small but it is so very feature packed
I think @happydan:disqus will agree with you about the Korgs. I was looking at them too (as they came out around the same time as the Evo5), but I just haven’t been able to make friends with their flimsy build quality. Touch a fader, encoder or button on the Evo5, then touch one on the Zero8… decision made. Of course, Firewire is completely useless these days, as no laptop manufacturer bothers with it anymore. You can convert from Thunderbolt, but… meh.
I had a KM-402, and can’t disagree that the build quality feels flimsier. Their components are amazing for more budget stuff like the Volcas, though.
I’d love to see a balls-out Zero8-mkII, with two audio interfaces, and some sort of way of switching the EQ section between 4-band, traditional 3-band, and something akin to the MODEL1… per channel.
Just look at it?!
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b6fe52dae0f12edd3604f643b9b3402d6dfae7f5703cfbb9c71619a74298cbd3.jpg
Wasn’t this one that came with the Ableton removable faceplates? Or was that an Allen& Heath? I’ve seen one once in a booth and took me like an hour to figure out what the hell I was looking at (controller or mixer or both?), lol
Those Zero mixers were awesome.
Still thinking about getting a used Zero4, but they seem to be hard to get in good condition.
Still have my Ecler. Use it for playing vinyl and when I jump on Traktor, I use either the onboard firewire on my Macbook or my Traktor Audio 6 when using my i7 tablet that does not have FW. My biggest gripe with the mixer is obviously FW though at the time it made sense, and there is no way to connect external effects. For MIDI when utilizing USB, I have a MIDI to USB that works perfectly on USB-only computers. I have basically made that mixer immortal. The MIDI and menu assignment is like nothing I have seen before or since. My favorite mixer ever and I bought it new back in its day.
I had forgotten all about the Evo5. Still looks more contemporary (and prettier) than the mixers made today.
It’s a Damn shame Ecler aren’t making mixers anymore. I would love to to see what they’d be doing today!
Spain economy unfotunately plummeted and I think they made some bad decisions in relation to US logistics. They were beginning to boom here.
They had controllers in development too.
Wow never knew about that Mark!
It was a picture of one of them back in the day…
This is a good article, on point and in good timing. So I had to make a comeback to this comment section, lol.
Hate to admit it, but the world’s most “hated” DJ company, Pioneer, is actually the only one answering the DJs’ calls, and in specific Turntablists’. They covered a massive gap with the S9, when none of the community’s “dearest” could even bother with. Before that, they were the only ones offering a true SDJ controller (the SP1). They single handedly kept Serato relative, when NI was blowing everything with the Z2. Talking innovation, they got that too (XDJ, Toraiz, DJS and all kinds of different controllers).
I’m pretty positive they are about to shut down Rane/InMusic for good. The whatever “revolutionary” tech shown on the 72 is already in the hands of Pioneer, they just wait with their popcorn on hand to see all the shitstorm blowing up, and then release the S9 mk2(?), adding just the CDJ screens on it. Boom!
People should start appreciating Pioneer a little bit more. I do. And I’m putting my money on them.
The PLX-1000 is an overpriced turkey, though.
Agreed. As every other Hanpin clone though (just as the VL12).
Mate seriously the VL12 are not other Hanpin clone read the review by DJWorx …
yea, yahorng is even worse
The Denons are light years ahead *nominally*. Real world business practice proves that the CDJs are *actually* light years ahead of everything available in the market. Let it be in terms of availability, stability, product placement, market reputation, built quality (even though I believe that the Denons are built the same). The biggest gimmick I’ve seen in recent years was the #changeyourrider BS of InMusic. Yeah whatever, first build an ecosystem like Rekordbox, then push like 2000 free units in clubs around the world and then maybe, somebody one day might actually request a Denon instead of a CDJ. Still, its almost half a year after the Denons were released and I’ve yet to see one of them in a club (or even in a home studio – all I see is promo units). Again, practice proves things the other way around. And BTW, those Denons look like a purple green offspring of a CDJ with a Reloop 8000, lol. They couldn’t even “innovate” on the design part.
We have clearly a pioneer fan boy over here ! “They couldn’t even “innovate” on the design part.” say the guy who pioneer has never changed the design since 2000
Fanboy my ass. What exactly should Pioneer change? The design which themselves first introduced? Go do your homework first dude before throwing bs.
Maybe it’s you’re personnal opinion about those Denon design but I return the question for you dude what exactly should denon change in their player about the design ? the built are better, it’s look fucking great in real , like a see you are not a fan of denon and the SC5000 don’t you ?
I’m not a fan of InMusic by experience. I’ve watched them destroying the legacy of AKAI, now I see them starting the same with Rane. Denon could have gone a million separate ways from Pioneer. For example, they could have thrown a motorized platter on it, or even better a 10″ platter. They didn’t, they just copied the established Pioneer design, labelled it “user experience compatible”, thrown some pads copied from the Reloop design, added a second layer (from previous InMusic designs) and called it a day.
I can agree that the SC5000 is better feature wise that any CDJ, but revolutionary? Hell no. The NS7 was revolutionary, like the CDX/HDX. This, like the 72 & twelve are not.
inmusic has ruined everything they’ve touched. I bought an mcx8000 when it dropped, and almost everyday since wished that I snagged a cheaper, better working pio controller instead. Rane 12 is decade+ old tech, the denon software is a fuckin nightmare, and numark are just riding on the success of 2 controllers that are years old now, dropping the best of the line before it even had a chance to catch hold. Like has been said already, I’m no fan of Pio’s corporate arm, but hell, their shit works and that’s more than can be said for anything inmusic these days. I give it 1 more year of “change your rider” before it’s “change your rider back” and the big name dj’s they’re paying figure out it aint worth the extra income and go slinking back to Pio.
I do dislike Pioneer as a company but my last 3 mixers have all been Pio because they’re answering what I want compared to other manufacturers.
Exactly my point. I don’t like them either, I honestly believe in the “Pioneer tax” thing. But they are by far the only ones answering DJs’ needs, compared to community’s “sweathearts” that do nothing else than push spare parts reassembled to “innovative” bullshit that’s been done ages ago.
While the DJM-900NXS2 is a cool mixer, it’s not likely to answer all DJ’s needs.
I’d always prefer the MP2015 over it, and I had a reasonable amount of DJMs before – but that’s just me.
I think you compare apples to oranges, even though both mixers are used to play the same type of music. You can’t compare a rotary mixer, designed around isolators, to an all around 4-channel mixer. In my eyes, they’re different categories of DJ mixers. And I believe the rotary market is probably the smallest niche of all mixer sub-markets.
Definitely oranges and apples!
My point was just that they are not the only ones answering DJ’s needs.
Their range of products is the most complete on the market, though.
I should have stared my post with “agreed!”
Although, some of the newer gear is missing the pio tax. The djm750mkii, djm450, and ddj1000 come to mind. The latter two seem to have forgone the tax to push RBDJ. Which is a smart move on pio’s part.
Welcome back. :)
I feel that the software will play a greater role in what happens in the future. If Pioneer DJ push rekordbox DVS hard with an S9 mk2, then you’ve got at least a two horse race, with both horses having great hardware and software. The future really does depend on the relationship between Pioneer and Serato. Traktor will be coming back soon enough, and who knows what else might be on the horizon.
Basically, there’s a scenario building. And it’s one where no one company will dominate. And that’s a good thing.
Thanks for the welcoming :-)
Indeed, software will be key. Its proven by the fact that even if Pioneer is developing Rekordbox, they still have to stick with Serato anyhow. And I highly doubt they will part ways anytime soon, even if it looks like they have an interest clash. I’m also expecting NI to come back somehow, 2018 will be the year they are either back in the game or they will be forever left behind, as adoption rates of SDJ/RB are becoming seriously alarming for Traktor.
Whats interesting is that Pioneer has been unusually quite lately. The S9 is already 2 years old, the CDJs are also becoming mature, as well as the 900nxs. Given their usual tactics, they are probably preparing a full lineup facelift, or they run out of cash due all those controllers, lol!
I’m not sure if I would appreciate a future (almost present) monopoly of Pioneer.
The last generations of CDJs were a clear sign of what happens to an industry if there’s no competition:
Skyrocketing prices & barely innovative products.
Two CDJ-2000NXS2s and an SP1 barely give you the abilities of a single SC5000.
That’s 4900€ vs 1800€.
I’m somewhat doubtful about the “revolutionary” approach of the Twelve, though :)
Agreed, but I think you’re looking at the CDJs from a wrong angle. They were never meant to be “revolutionary”, rather they were always the workhorses designed specifically for a task. Take for example Mercedes-Benz and their car lineup, you can find all sorts of innovative models, but their true cash cow remains their proffesional/ heavy truck division and that is nowhere close to innovative, because it is simply not required. Another example is the G series landboat of an SUV that they still sell, lol.
.
I look at CDJs the same way, they are not required to be innovative, they are required though to get the job done, night in, night out, and arguably they remain the best to this date. If you want to see some Pioneer innovation, look at those DJS things. They are nowhere complete or usefull, but Pioneer threw them in the market anyway to see where this should go. The same with the Topaiz line. And they deserve some kudos for trying that, instead of sitting on their CDJs for ever.
That’s why I prefer BMW – their most profitable branch as an upscale manufacturer is their cars, not trucks :-)
Well, a certain stability and predictability is good – no one wants to enter a booth to find something they don’t understand.
But the features of the SC5000 have been around in software and controllers for more than a decade – it’s nothing ground breaking.
Using the most current CDJs simply feels like a giant step back from what I have implemented in my workflow for so long.
Also a decent touch screen does not hurt anyone.
The DJS / Toraiz devices are late to the market and still lacking a lot of features…
I do fully agree with you but considering Denons awful software support for older tabletop cd-players like the SC3700 for example where Music Manager doesn’t even work in Windows 10 it doesn’t matter how many features their cd-players have.
Unfortunately the manufacturers cd-players relying too much on software makes or breaks depending on the support they receive.
It wouldn’t suprise me if SC5000 doesn’t get supported in about five years time or even less.
That’s why I’d love to see Traktor support for the SC5000.
Even if they screw up Engine again, the player could still be used.
I had the 3700s and they worked good in Traktor (except display support) and they would still work the same way today, after almost 10 years.
bust my wallet = heavy car with low gears
why do people think these junkers are nice.
even in the socal desert, they’re rusty as f underneath
and these are supposed ot survive a hinterland winter? ha, gtfo
Please stop with the Pioneer fanboy speech.
Pioneer is interested purely in business.
That is why we don’t have a single or better two 7″ displays on the ddj-1000.
Also pioneer removed some really great features in their mixers just because of the business perspective.
Search in YT for the “inloop sampler” of I believe DJM-450 (or was it 400?).
It was an amazing feature for live remixing. You could record a channel or master for some bars and instantly and seamlessly loop it.
All actions (capturing and instantly loop) with a SINGLE button press.
And you could add those in multiple layers.
Play drums of track 1
Play bassline and synth of track 2.
instaloop on layer 1.
Add vocals from an acapella on top and instaloop.
Scratch over this and instaloop
use fx and instaloop.
Boom -> you have created an absolutely unique remix / performance live like reaaaaally easy by just playing a mudic element and pressing a button one time after it.
Tell me how to do this today?
Doesn’t matter if djm-900nxs2, serato, rekordbox..
You can’t.
You could possibly with a boss or roland sampler but it would involve more then a single button press per layer and would be additional 500 bucks to spend.
Fanboy my ass pt2.
You describe a feature, which I really can’t connect directly to any sort of business / corporate strategy, besides running out of circuit panels for it or being not cost effective anymore to include it? And you said it yourself, this cannot be done with any platform anymore. So, why in specific is Pioneer the only corporate monster and not the rest as well?
Just for the record, the only piece of Pioneer gear I own is an SP1. That’s all. But I give them kudos for developing the S9, while all other companies were throwing spaggetti on a wall. And I’m fed up reading all the hating on them, while all others constantly get a pass, and in specific InMusic. I’ve watched them diluting AKAI, now I see them doing the same with RANE, and yet Pioneer gets all the shitting.
Now, lets refocus on the initial thread.
“feature, which I really can’t connect directly to any sort of business / corporate strategy, besides running out of circuit panels for it or being not cost effective anymore to include it? ”
Are you for real?
They are hardware manifacturers, I sure the can get any circuits produced they want. Especially they already have developed them in a product.
As for “can not be done in any other software”
-> serato and others did not had the feature in the past.
Pioneer did.
Why don’t you watch some videos about in-loop sampler and DJM-400 and then think about it again.
It was a DJM from the last century.
Would be easy to include it in the current DJM’s and rekordbox.
But wait…what about the s1000 and toraiz then?
Nahhh, maybe next time..
Tim, have you ever heard about chip shortages? Obviously not. Here’s an example, the infamous SP1200 and why EMU stopped their production run (hint: it was about the filter chips). You’d think that EMU was in position to produce them themselves. Well, they tried that and they failed. Thus, they were forced to stop the SP run in 1998 because they run out of their last reserves. A similar story circulates about the 808 too.
On to the topic now. In all seriousness, you believe that anybody is bothered about one missing feature on a mixer, released like 2 decades ago? Aren’t you taking this a bit too serious, lol? If this feature was of any importance, the market would have adjusted and it would have been developed by someone else. 2 decades later and still nobody bothers with it. The market (users) have responded regarding its significance.
I’m sorry that this was obviously super important for you and you’re left with nothing, but honestly, who gives a fuck, lol? I’m also missing various features, but I’m just only 1 guy versus a market. There’s a whole market for a portable direct drive turntable, yet nobody bothers with it as well. The same for a 10″ platter too.
We have to live with what we have.
Or try by ourselves and understand why it isn’t so straightforward evil…
You are talking about analog sound generating chips.
It’s a totally different beast.
The chip that would be needed for the in-loop sampler is something completely different.
“If this feature would be of any importance bla”
You really don’t understood the message of the article.
The lack of two 7″ CDJ-2000nxs2 styled displays on the DDJ-1000 is also because “who needs this feature”?
Heck, it would be a bless if they would include even cheaper 7″ displays or allow to browse the library on the tiny jog displays.
Step out of your ignorance bubble.
On the side note:
When you dominate the market so strong, then it is you who decides about product diversification and not the customer.
Business 1*1
The only thing “analog” in the SP1200s was, maybe, the casing, lol. Trust me, I’ve owned 2 of them.
Get your facts straight. Bashing on Pioneer because they don’t cover your needs is your right to do so, as it is for you to go buy something else. If the SC5000 covers you, that’s great. Stick to them. That’s why we have competition, we get to pick what fits us best.
These two Pioneers aren’t the same. The first release things the day they announce, the second show it rear a glass and delivers full of bugs… but I still get the point from @kebzer since Pioneer is trying to cover all the gaps in their standarization purposes and almost learn from the past and include turntables and turntablism.
An add some innovation in the hardware field.
Not my favourite but inMusic even less…
You seem to have a short memory. Have you forgotten when Pio basically ditched Serato to focus on Rekordbox, only to come back with Serato products when their customer base was unhappy?
Rane had the 62 (and a host of other Serato mixers) well before the S9.
Work was underway on the 72 before the S9 came out.
Akai had the AFX Serato controller around the same time as the SP1.
Only Rane and Denon have made Serato DVS interfaces. Pio’s DVS interface only plays nice with Rekordbox.
“The whatever “revolutionary” tech shown on the 72 is already in the hands of Pioneer”. That’s pure speculation on your behalf.
we also got TTM recording/visualization back in the day and neither serato or traktor implemented it in their software
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1rECkUjX0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kinhybgOOTI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUsvbPMjaEE
Your user name says it all – but it would’ve been good for someone to officially endorse some of those tools. Because a LOT of awesome stuff can be built on top of them.
The new Serato Jazzy Jeff controller has his scratch presets included. The technology is out there from long ago and it isn’t rocket science but yes is the niche of the niche so don’t expect more adoption than Flip and JJ presets…
PS: it could be done in a day just using Ableton and maxforlive but even you can code it, it doesn’t worth the effort in any way. Believe me… anyways if you want to know more about it just drop me a mail adding (ab)gmail(dot)com to my user name.
I believe a lot of interesting things can be done by intercepting platter position via timecode.
Once upon a time me too.
Also remember there are solutions out there for prototyping your own “turntable decoder”, software and hardware based.
Do you want a chair?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6DsVVYgv7g
wtf!? XD
Good discussion here, though we all forget one basic rule, innovation doesn’t always mean progress. I’ll just leave this here:
http://www.createdigitalmusic.com/files/2007/03/fbtop2.jpg
I own one of them….it’s a really fun piece of gear. Seriously.
its incredibly frustating, how few quality fader-controllers exist today. The faderboard was a remarkable piece of gear, its only a shame that its not available ;[
I know you are very ttablist oriented but Faderboard has poor success due it’s easy to do that with pads.
I had one and it had some interesting features but faders as note trigger was the major drawback IMHO.
Progress doesn’t always mean popular or successful !
Wowzers! That EVO5 mixer looks badass! GAS building up, a pity it uses firewire though.. Were it USB class compliant, it could still be used today in all of its glory. Nonetheless, seems like it could work perfectly as a staandalone unit. I wonder if it is easy to send MIDI clock from the mixer..
It’s the reason why I went with the Sixty-Four eventually. It does all of that… MIDI clock, audio routings between 2 laptops – or just locally. The FX insert lets you use DAW effects and capture loops in Ableton Live, and MIDI clock is pretty much as tight as it gets (not perfect, but it’s a 35 year old standard).
Let’s hope the Seventy-Four, if we ever see one, doesn’t stomp on this legacy.
I still own and love my Korg Zero 4, it sounds, ahem, less than pristine, but it has so much goddamn character for a digital mixer – all the effects feel really idiosyncratic. I’d love it if the internal firewire routing worked with any laptop I’ve owned since I’ve had it, but hey, that’s what the Audio10’s for ;)
That and the Zero 8 were trying to do something really exciting, and hey, they didn’t get it right – but I still love mine!
The important thing is that they did it at all. That’s kind of the point I was trying to get across.
Continuous crash / hang / freeze, didn’t let me a nice impression of the Korg 4. But features wise it was impressive then !
I have the smac first. the “punch” “transform” buttons work well, and sound good. need to get around to putting a scratch crossfader in it, but being lazy. anyone know one that will work?
I’m considering getting an sp-10 to use with the phase, any thoughts?
What do you guys/ladies think about using the Phase Wireless system to repurpose older controllers like the Numark V7 and Denon SC3900 motorized platters to be used with Serato, Traktor, etc?
I think there’ll be a lot of folks doing that.
There used to be a bunch of used v7s on the GC dite, now there’s none.(1) I wondered if prople had bought them for the purpose.
But what’s really interesting is old 7” turntable, that you can take the tonearm off of and wedge a fader an iphone in the(really weird they didnt fo a demo eith edjing scratch or djplayer)
I have the phillips type 100, just waiting for the phase, (and I gotta gut this handykutz to put it inside the turntable case)
Why not directly cdx?
Oh, yes ! My Numark V7 into Rekordbox, wow… I like the idea !
The SC3900 can deliver timecode by cd/usb or generate a tone in hybrid mode so not needed imo.
i think that the midi input (like pdx 3000) was already implemented in the numark cdx/hdx…
Yes related to tone control but not related to motor speed.
I was ready to buy the Rane Twelve, and it kept getting delayed, so I bought a used V7, and love it! It works great with my Akai AMX, beside no ability to record internally in Serato. I have a Denon HS 5500 kicking around, so my upgrade path has become a Reloop RMX 90, and have the 5500 control two decks via DVS, the V7 controlling two decks internally, along with my Akai AFX, ending with a fully functional motorized modular 4 deck Serato system with a smaller physical footprint than the 2 Twelves and the 72 for less than a 3rd of the price, plus has even more options!
Totally agree with the points made in this article. It frustrates me to no end that a new Pioneer mixer comes out, (which I’ll inevitably play on and see on nearly every rider) and we’re pleased with new features like resonance control and ground screws that aren’t total crap. Don’t get me wrong, i’m pleased to finally see those, but they should have always been there.
Same goes for Pioneer CDJs. So few artists play on CDs now but so MANY use CDJ2000nxs2 with USBs. Not really an issue there, but they are packed with features very few people use, only in the most recent iteration had a modern cue point system, and cost DOUBLE what they’re worth. Denon is doing some great stuff but until people really do ‘change their rider’ it isn’t going to mean much. But Pioneer has us my the balls and they know it.
I’m not saying Pioneer is the devil. In fact I really like what they’re doing with controllers. (There’s a lot of innovation in controllers in general actually) but it would be nice if after years of being fleeced that we finally got something new or cool or at least moved things forward a little more.
I had an Ecler NUO4 back in the day, it was also proper innovation. But that was at a time when innovation was easier to do as we were just starting to make the switch to digital DJing.
Does anybody have firmware updates for the numark CDX!! Impossible to find.