Last week, I wrote a long piece about innovation and the lack thereof in the DJ industry. The thrust of my argument was that the core needs of the DJ are simple, and there’s only so many ways to play two tracks back to back, meaning that the likelihood of more game changers is slim. For the foreseeable future, we’re in for improvements and perhaps some innovation, but nothing that fundamentally creates a new paradigm.
But aside from the obvious technological reasons for this lull in advancement, there is another major reason that I started to write about, but thought it would make an article on its own.
NOBODY MOVE
We find ourselves in a very strange place right now, and it’s all because of Pioneer DJ. Having lobbed the rekordbox DJ stun grenade into the DJ room, the rest of the DJ industry has been left stumbling around in a state of confusion. It’s not like it exactly came out of nowhere — we predicted it some time before it happened, and I’m aware that it wasn’t exactly a surprise to the industry either.
But what it has done is deliver a state of paralysis — a DJ industry standoff where long crafted plans for their relative flavours of self-proclaimed game changers have been put on hold.
NI wanted to be the industry’s Apple. But the cool new stuff delivered inside their relatively closed ecosystem has failed to really grab the attention of the masses, while the core Traktor software has remained largely unchanged. So for most people, Traktor has ground to a halt, and NI seems to be in no rush to release the handbrake either.
As for VirtualDJ… after launching VDJ8 and proving that quality DVS isn’t just in the realms of the big two, things have gone quiet. There have been changes at the top, but outside of that progress seems slow. I’m sure that there are more conversations about market positioning than which bell or whistle to add in next at VDJ HQ right now.
But more so than any other, Serato has suffered the most. Having seen its biggest partner run off into the night with little more than a Dear John letter, and at the same time taking a huge slice of market share, it’s little wonder that Serato has been left in a state of shock.
And their plan for what to do next is considerably more complex than anyone else’s. Take on new partners? Squeeze more out of existing ones? Exclusive partnership? Try something new? Or just sell? I’m sure everything has been considered and time will tell what happens next. Just bear with Serato a little — they’re going through a difficult divorce right now.
So because of this reluctance to make the next move, and the industry’s progress depending so much on what these companies do, the impression is one of a lack of innovation. But it’s more about working out new roadmaps. Plans that had been made now sit on a shelf waiting to be dusted off at some point, while others have been tossed into the shredder. If we’re talking about disrupting an industry, Pioneer DJ has definitely done that.
STANDOFF? WHAT STANDOFF?
While the rest of the industry is frozen to the spot looking at teach other for a tell or a tipping of their respective hands, Pioneer DJ is ploughing on regardless. They clearly have a product strategy with a defined timeline, and with the glut of new investment is capitalising on the industry paralysis that their rekordbox DJ stun grenade has caused. After all, investors want profit and have little need for a nice CDJ setup in the office.
Pioneer’s path seems to be filling in the gaps and dipping its toe in the producer market. There’s not a tremendous amount of innovation in their new gear, but features like sample sequencing indicate that some forward thinking is happening. But right now they are playing catchup, and it’s a game they’re playing very well indeed.
WE’RE WAITING
But we’re hungry. While technology does breed loyalty, it also induces hunger for more. And if Pioneer DJ continues to advance and innovate, the hungry masses will go to where the innovation is. Right now, we seem to be served with a sushi bar style conveyor of new shiny from Pioneer DJ — it’s a veritable carpet bombing of new toys to play with, designed to permeate the DJ scene with rekordbox, and it seems to be working. Pioneer DJ’s marketing game is very strong indeed, and is backed with a lot of cash.
Just two years ago, we foresaw a terminally boring future where Traktor’s eclectic workflow would be clashing with Serato’s via an endless stream of sausage factory controllers. And right now that’s pretty much panned out. But we wouldn’t even like to guess the next 6 months. But it does look like the market is about to become more diverse than ever. We’ve been shown stuff, have been told stuff, and have shaken the grapevine hard to dig up stuff too. And the extended period of waiting will yield some very interesting things. And that’s coming from someone who no longer impresses easily.
In writing this, I’m still not sure if we’re witnessing a standoff or a game of poker. But whatever the outcome, the stakes are very high in this industry game. For some companies, these could be all-in times.
FUN TIMES AHEAD
The lull in real innovation has been caused in part by the fact that there’s only so many ways to fulfil the core task of playing tracks back and forth, but also by the carnage created by the crater left by the rekordbox DJ grenade. Companies are recovering, regrouping, forming stronger alliances, and some with new strategies completely. The next 12 months are going to be very interesting indeed. I hope that this year’s BPM will be a key event with some much needed innovation too. And if you’re in the industry and reading this, and think I’m talking about you, then I probably am. Extract digits and get on with your game plan, otherwise you’ll be the ones playing catchup.
Serato need to open the doors fully rather than just with the new shiny ones. Take the x1700 for example, audio wise it’s a 1000 times better than a 900nxs but they won’t apply the club kit to it or its brother the x1600. They want me to buy a ds1 which would be okay but I am a four channel user which counts me out on a ds1.
Do you remember what was Final Scratch Open?
Different beast-FS Open was a box that had no software, with an invitation for compatibility. It was a band-aid for the loss of Traktor FS.
Yes but I was pointing to the Stanton lost and how being more open because the leadeer of the market doesn’t want to be your partner is not a good end road…
My bets regarding Serato’s strategy would be on a tighter partnership with InMusic – more specifically with Akai Professional: SDJ 2.0 being able to sync with the MPC Touch to incorporate serious live performance capabilities (the Bridge 2.0). Oh and pretty please release a deck controller a la the Traktor D2 for SDJ too (MPC like performance buttons, hi-res screen, touch strip). It would be all the innovation I need for the coming decade.. :)
The Bridge is dead. Ableton Sync was the ladt nail in the coffin.
About deck controller… Something like akai afx?
I have the AFX, but it’s grabbing dust. The quality of the touch-strip is below every standard, both the hardware (not precise enough) as the software implementation. I’ve owned the Novation Twitch and they should’ve looked better to that touch-strip. Also implementing a screen is the logical next step. SDJ is ready for it looking at the Numark stuff. About Bridge: Serato was planning to get it back: http://news.djcity.com/serato-live-video-qa-hosted-by-djcity/ at 43:35. But that was back in August 2014..
I was asking about afx due I wasn’t sure about form factor. Sad to know is low quality in it. NI could make D2 class compliant to work with iOS and it will make useful to vdj but I don’t think they will do it this way and go for the closed NHL protocol as other devices (S2/4 mk2 and z1)
About bridge if you search at the forums they are still asking (poll) for midi clock implementation in sdj and this points there is not plans to implement somekind of Ableton Link in their near product (due they are asking because they don’t know how to focus the development). I left the Serato forums the last week or so with these debate and my thoughts. People asked about madman blablaing… Well this Djworx article shows the top of iceberg and anyone not so fanboy of serato could see that they have a problem since sdj/ssl evolution. Pioneer and NI make their homework and now Serato is being irrelevant in ungrowing market (A>B mixing). The market has shifted and the innovation is not in A>B mixing because it has all done (maybe stems could bring some fresh air but why producers will need a turntable or dj app to play their music in gigs?)
Ableton could implement somekind of turntable control (pieces of the puzzle are done) or NI could make a Maschine Deck or Serato could make a full cue sequencer but the point is most of them is possible today and few people are using it to make something different or innovative to be interesting to others (and implement these workflows help in sales to the developer which implement them)
Instead of all of this is better to study the actual tools which are great and multiple to find fun in make/mangle music. At last it is all about the music… And how us play with/it
NI could expand the ‘Traktor Certified’ program to more hardware. As Serato’s business model is based around free software for the user its a bit trickier (unless they are going to follow NI’s model). Alternatively, NI & Serato could actually collab and provide drivers for each others interfaces so DJ’s are playing on each others gear with their own software. This could potentially slow down Pioneers growth in the software market as the convenience would lessen the desitre to jump ship?
Given that Pioneer DJ’s model seems to be unofficial support of mixers with audio interfaces (not all it would appear though), NI would do well to follow suit. They are fully aware of the Traktor hack to get other mixers to work with Traktor Scratch, and tolerate it knowing that they don’t have to officially support it.
Just selling a license for TSP2 with the Scratch Kit would help.
You said it right, when your software/gear just focuses on playing tracks back and forth you´ll reach a point where you just can´t move on any more. You can make it look fancier and place things differently but in the end it´s all the same… So why not going into a different direction? By trying to establish the Turntable (or something similar) as a production tool like a Synthesizer or Sampler you get tons of new possibilities instead of just playing tracks. Just take the concept of Synthtablism for example, that´s just the beginning of what is possible. And when people who don´t come from a Turntablism and/or Hip Hop background start utilizing it, they will come up with different ways to use it, giving others new ideas.
So my bet for the future would be going into this direction because it gives you lots of possibilities (controlling different paramters of a Synth with the platter/jog wheel, faders and knobs of the mixer means endless hours of fun and experimentation).
And only because you would be able to do all kinds of freaky stuff with it doesn´t mean you have to. If one prefers to just blend Track A into Track B, so be it. But at least there´s still enough to explore for others who would like to…
Out there are some solutions but didn’t seem to get “massive” never. From maxforlive ms.pinky, scratch track, pdx3000/c-one, Imageline Grossbeat… To underground innovations such fretless fader, portable faders and turntables….
So it is not a fault from brands to innovate or simply steal those concepts (djtech anyone?). The problem is trying to make revenue from these when them aren’t approved/supported by enough people in the movement and the fact that these ideas maybe were innovative 10 years ago but today “buyers” maybe have the workflow defined or tablet/mobile based make these ideas irrelevant (even Dvs on tablets ie)
Think own taste is everyone taste and blame “luck” or capitalism couldn’t make them happen (I learnt by the hard way) even if you work to make them happen. Imagine waiting from market to…
Fair point but the problem remains, when you just beat around a dead bush you´ll never make a big step forward or innovate a concept that has been covered in numerous ways. There might be new approaches with touch screen solutions etc. but it still is the concept of mixing one track after another, so in the end it´s not really anything new. Just switching the steering wheel and tires on a car doesn´t make it a new transportation device…
There are a lot of cats out there trying new stuff and developing their own ideas (I didn´t even mention the Fretless Fader or the MIDI mod for the PDX2000 since getting a new PDX3000 seems to be as likely as a Controller One these days) but since they do everything themselves it either takes a long time until a solid version comes out (if at all) and/or it´s just very expensive and therefor not affordable for someone who would like to use it but doesn´t make a living from DJing (like me). And not everyone has the background/capabilities or simply the interest in developing a new controller/software etc themselves, so people like me unfortunately depend on companies until someone releases the next big thing that I can use without having to replace half of my gear to afford it… Which in my case is the main reason why I can´t test every new approach although I´d like to. And any type of sponsoring for somebody who plays once in a while and doesn´t have a fanbase is not really realistic.
You asked why not going in other direction. If you are not going to do it yourself and brands can’t make profit on develop it… Why anyone will go these route or make it easy for others which aren’t going to involve themselves enough?
Because it doesn’t makes sense for anyone could be an answer. Maybe not the only of course but one which support the “lack” of innovation. It is not only a matter of good idea, it has to be also a good product.
You could also turn that around and ask why do companies keep releasing controllers that are basically like the one before or almost exactly the same as the competitor…?
No matter what field, when you keep releasing the same type of product you´ll always reach a peak from where there´s naturally just one direction left: down again. So flooding a already full market doesn´t really make any sense either or am I missing something?
Maybe the throw away mentality these days still fills the pockets of manufacturers…
Yeah agreed but it’s only part of the equation! I will love to see these innovations happen but I also understand why they will not be.
Brands follow a goal in their attempt to make money of course. It could be bigger jogs or more rgb or whatever they “think” will be the next big thing and they took the inspiration from underground and early adopters. We could learn from these too.
I pointed one example with “tablet dvs”. It was a common wishlist in the last decade (the portable touchscreen with dvs cappabilities) but when it arrives seems to be too later or too soon. Reach the sweet point where buyers traction and innovation releasing chokes with the SO or hardware dependency (in the standalone units) and …money investment more often than we could imagine! With the actual crisis there are few examples of bankruptcy and reborn of some brands for not dealing well with the risk. Vestax is the most recent and it was one of the most innovative in turntablism/dj field.
How it was possible? Think a bit about it…
“tablet dvs” “when it arrives” <– It's already here.
Arrives = arrived. Read all my comments, please. Meanwhile I will edit the mistake haha!
My english is far from perfect, and i couldn’t understand your comment with this mistake at all. :-) Now i got it.
Thanks for point me it and let me thank you once again for your work with iOS devices. Thumbs up!
If you have massive turntables you don’t need anything more portable than a laptop which is already hella portable
And if you have tablet dj apps on your tablet you don’t need to carry heavyweight and expensive gear. A matter of target and perspective right?
You ever heard of Marley Marl? he was like a catalyst. He didn’t make up new terms for shit. When he played his famous radio show he didn’t say he was doing radiosynthilism. When he invented hiphop production he didn’t call it tapedrumscratchilism. He just made shit
You said it right, when your software/gear just focuses on playing tracks back and forth you´ll reach a point where you just can´t move on any more. You can make it look fancier and place things differently but in the end it´s all the same… So why not going into a different direction? By trying to establish the Turntable (or something similar) as a production tool like a Synthesizer or Sampler you get tons of new possibilities instead of just playing tracks. Just take the concept of Synthtablism for example, that´s just the beginning of what is possible. And when people who don´t come from a Turntablism and/or Hip Hop background start utilizing it, they will come up with different ways to use it, giving others new ideas.
So my bet for the future would be going into this direction because it gives you lots of possibilities (controlling different paramters of a Synth with the platter/jog wheel, faders and knobs of the mixer means endless hours of fun and experimentation).
And only because you would be able to do all kinds of freaky stuff with it doesn´t mean you have to. If one prefers to just blend Track A into Track B, so be it. But at least there´s still enough to explore for others who would like to…
NI need to do more with STEMS. Great work releasing this new format, but with the exception of the highly skilled Gabor at iMect (DJ Player Pro), the only option is to use Traktor. The STEMS available to purchase are pretty much limited to new releases, which doesn’t really fire the imagination. Why not team up with the folk behind Guitar Hero / DJ Hero who do have multitrack files for all content and generate professionally glued together STEMS? I know it can be done – it would be good to see done legitimately.
VDJ had big plans, but the release of v8 took *years*…they wanted to have this all-encompassing software. DVS was just one component. They wanted a slice of the iOS world too, with the aim of bringing the same functionality regardless of platform.
Innovation is there, it just tends to fall foul of poor planning / marketing.
The point about stems is to make your own or if you actually produce (the true target) make easy to dj with you music more than Ableton live (and add turntable cool factor in the equation)
I think we could see more from Stems now the SDK has been released in the last few days.
Previously it was only “officially” available in Traktor (DJ Player and Flow did their own way of making it happen but it wasn’t official).
Now the official flag is flying we could see it added to VDJ, Serato or Rekordbox (highly unlikely but we can all dream).
Or we could see it go nowhere and it be confined to N.I. and the others that ‘got it to work’.
I see lots of innovation in iPad realm and nowadays is easy/cheap to djing and live producing than ever in the last 25 years… So maybe it is a matter of field perspective?
Yeah man, I want a windows tablet maybe like 8 inches, and a touch based interface maybe like VDJ8, and then a small controller maybe like the Korg Kaoss DJ, and a portable speaker you know like them Bluetooth ones. That shit is almost there like I love the fact they put batteries and speakers in equipment now. I mean really the only thing that need innovating is the music industry and peoples fatalistic perspectives on things and their bumfuckery of Apple I think that’s my point anyway.
I didn’t understand the bumfuckery part but agreed with the rest about portability and batteries. Anyone could rock a mini party everywhere!
Well, yes and no. Following where this stuff goes can give a DJ great insight into the tools they will have available in the future. It isn’t that you should stop DJing and watch the tech space (cause that would be boring as hell), but keeping up on this stuff can be interesting. And exciting. And can give a DJ a better idea of what tools are available to begin with.
Of course no one buys every piece of gear. But they may want to buy something new, and being aware of what is out there is always a good thing.
Of course!
I read every article on DJWorx, DJTechTools, DigitalDJTips etc. read books on the history of DJing cos music is my life, literally. I’m a full time DJ/Producer/Engineer this is my day job. I have to keep fully uptodate with every new piece of Pro Audio gear Studio/Live/DJ. But I don’t expect a new audio interface to be any different from the one released by the same brand last year, it has one job to do and that hasn’t changed.
It’s the same with DJing, there’s only one thing you really need to do and that’s transition from one song into another. There are no game changers, the game is the same, the art is the same. It is amazing for what it is, it doesn’t need to be more or better or bigger. Love it for what it is and have fun doing it!
Oh I know you keep up on it. I see you around :)
I think that in a lot of these discussions the… soul? heart? reality? of what we do has been lost. Sync is a great example of a technology advancement that is great for DJing, but terrible for discussion.
There are game changers, but they don’t change what DJing is. They change HOW we DJ. Even in little dribs and drabs. And I like being able to re-think how I get track one into track two and maybe throw in track three or four. But in the end, we are all playing pre-recorded music to entertain people. And that should be good enough.
Exactly, I had as much fun mixing 2 cassette decks together as a Roller Skating DJ in the early 90s, or Vinyl at raves in the late 90s, or CDs in clubs in the 00s as I do now with my MBP and controller. The only real change is the amount of gear that I have to carry to gigs. And trust me I will never go back to heavy ass crates ever again!
Seriously. The biggest advantage to going digital is I carry a backpack to gigs and that’s it. No more huge books of CDs.
“huge books of CDs”. LOL.
Oh vinyl times bringing your whole setup and 30? Records… XD
Pioneer was born of a CD. Serato was born of a technics 1200. Serato win
The guy with the small controller almost has an advantage over the guy with the high end heavier controller. They just rock out with their cock out and get the party lively, then put their shit in a bag and party themselve
The thing is compatibility. Especially if you’re using dj software. Too many different databases. And what if you want to play in real CD/Media players. There is rekordbox and Engine. You have to analyze your tracks too many times with too many different software
Exactly. Good for the company of course to keep people with their brand but for the user who wants to test different options to find the best solution for his/her demands is just a pain in the ass.
All you really need is your base software (Traktor/Serato etc.) and Rekordbox for CDJs in clubs. That’s it.
As a Sound Engineer & Record Producer I use ProTools, I don’t also use Logic, Cubase, FL Studio, Ableton, Nuendo etc. because that would be ridiculous, counterproductive and expensive.
So why would I do that with my DJ software?
I agree and I will share a insight about this. In my opinion NI is not going to release any kind of Maschine deck as a “midi sequencer” inside traktor because they seem to see separated workflows for studio and live. They give us tools for studio like maschine and komplete then give Traktor for the live gig and other tools for the translation in between (like some functions in maschine such export to remix deck or stem creator tool).
This makes NI focus on stable one function apps instead of charging vst in live scenario or automated scratch in maschine/daw workflow.
Please… I will love to know your own thoughts on this!
Yes making music and playing music are 2 different beasts. Focus on doing each one well and not trying to do everything at once poorly.
I have a MidiFighter Twister if I need a sequencer in Traktor. Traktor is a very powerful program if utilised fully, which none of use really do.
Well the new garageband for iOS is filling the gap ala Ableton live but I agree. Even when I used remix decks, traxus and looping tecniques in the past glued altogether with Traktor I felt it wasn’t the path to fun. That’s why sold my mac and focus in iPad. I could produce with all these “skills” at home and maybe make some looping in live gig to bring some adrenaline to the performing but at last people want music (and if it is well know artist the better of course) so when I made gigs (live music playing) in the future I will go A>B tracklist and maybe stems dubwise for the djing sessions (without singing or playing an instrument) Different workflows for different gig.
Going step forward I will not care about tools as you pointed in the first comment.
Thanks for share No Qualms. :)
kind of Traktors saving grace is some of it’s features. like remix decks and stems and the way the external sync works. Large up NI
fuck CDJs, fuck CDJ DJs, and fuck CDs
what’s your opinion Kuvo?
fuck S900s that shit hella expensive we don’t need that much money to have a good time
Every year, since I’ve started following this stuff, “the next 12 months” are going to be huge. And sometimes they are. but most of the time it’s just more controllers, and MAYBE an extra feature that no one really understands.
Shoebox loop player
If only first audio would make “kits”; boards with all the functionality programmed in, pin connectors for all buttons, faders, now that would be innovative
Like modular synths?
Im thinking about all the controllers and mixers that already do the tasks we are interested in, but ergonomically dont “work” for everyone.
So if a person could easily rebuild a device (without soldering) then more people could find more of a “fit” for their personal style.
The time has come to look backwards for innovation, reworking old products that were close to being great, but I doubt it will happen.
I see your point mate but there where solutions like mawzer that never gone released and I think that’s due few people want these over most people want “ready-to-go”.
In other hand if some brand releases something like korg littlebits for dj gear I suspect we will see lots of regular gear clones and lots of mad scientist wereables but nothing really evoltionary in the middle. I feel the “problem” is more in the exponential curve of “possibilities vs easy to use” than true problems in solving the A>B mixing.
Public expect “fireworks” meanwhile we have fun with “2 turntables and a mic” ;)
Digital djing took off because it solved a problem; the logistics of possessing/transporting 1000s of songs.
There are still problems (or at least “pain in the you know whats) that can or could be solved.
Teenage engineering has op-lab. Maybe it suits you.
Im saying “legitimize” modding. Instead of soldering connections, just make everything a pin, with a push on wire.
I would start with an audio device, but midi would be good too
Its very difficult to found new/better device layouts (which is a big problem, look at how diccessful the dicer has been) without tje ability to try out different lsuouts easily.
I see… The most similar to this is the korg “hacking friendly” politic of their monotron, monotribe, volca series (giving users the schematics and leaving some space in the board for easy soldering) but this avoid the guarantee and makes difficult (if not impossble) to pass fcc regulations. Also korg littlebits could be interesting for you. It has different form factor, specs and price but it has some nice audio/synth modules to deal ;)
Really interested in audio mixers atm
Rebuilding a gemini pmx 60 with pins, so i can keep changing the layout, and move some controls onto the turntable (with longer wires)
I’d like to do an aggragate wire/connector and have double everything. A crossfader in the mixer, and a crossfader/eqs etc, in the turntable.
So…starting with a mixer that had pins and connectors would have saved me a lot of work.
Then check Mawzer project, teensy monster project and some shields for arduino like groove ones from seedstudios or similar.
For audio mixers you have too the doepfer kits, the api 500 series and some modular approaches. Control voltage and these things…
Nice, I’ll look into those
Gracias senor
Also been thinking about those printed on paper midi controllers. Couldn’t the same thing done in the shape of a record, with a gyroscope built in so it would know it was spinning, and a blutooth component to access the library, loops, and cues.
I mean this is a digital record, that could be plopped onto a turntable, and it certainly looks doable, today.
If you matched it with a kit; a board and a project box with breakout holes for buttons, knobs, and faders. You could save on production cost.
But alas it wont happen.
So you bunch of ‘risking nothing yet expecting big returns chickens’ deserve to lose your share of the market.
Novallia have made some great printed midi controllers, I Beta tested a few…in fact they made the printed controller for Qbert’s LP
I’ve emailed them, to see if they could do it, and what the cost might be. But if experience tells me anything, theyll just take the idea and run with it without me. I would say fine and be glad i could buy one, but with most of MY ideas, the lack of my input during the dev stage leads to problems with the device.
I really wonder if they could print into vinyl, like laptop skins. Be rad to turn the faceplate of an audio mixer into a controller.
I would stick with it Steve, they came across as really nice, enthusiastic people but they need a push in the right direction.
There was some attempt on this time ago (accelerometer scratching) and today has more sense than ever due to bluetooth lte and iDevices but again has the same development problems of everything.
– For iOS is not necessary or relevant (because djs avoid tablets but demand…
-… Embed devices (which) are expensive to develop and djing market is even small than tablet market.
– Making it compatible with regular soft should suppose some kind of license or hacking because turntable vector is the holy grial of these software (any brand don’t permits users to “midify” it with motorized factor only midi jogs > Remember DjQuartz and Ns7 case) only… Djplayer or vdj! Again zero market (sorry Gàbor but I suspect you realized by yourself time ago)
– Djs don’t want kits, want finished, reliable and (often boring) same as my big bro gear.
I still habe some pieces for you at my lab… ;)
Not really. If I write a song and master it and publish it and promote it, that’s called making a record. Records are sexy. Bluetooth records make me want to kill myself. If there was a market for it then you would make it.
I agree with you.
I like the idea of a record, but enjoy frequent updates to my scratch sample catalog. I currently carry them on thumb drives, but would prefer to have them on a record.
What i want is a single device, Where the content can be changed-this is the key, never again will i return to crates of records, i just wont do it- and played on a turntable.
Is that really so upsetting to your rigid definition of a record? Particularly when you see when i’m describing as resembling the original idea of record on a turntable more closely than dvs, because one is forced to pay attention to the sound instead of the laptop screen.
It boggles my mind why serato put such an effort into Pulselocker when I feel like everyone was waiting for them to reveal whatever Bridge like features they had up their sleeve.
I have a few theories on that. Either:
1. Capitalizing on the popularity of DJing streamed content.
2. Ableton no longer wants to work with Serato as they’re doing just fine with Ableton users, controllers, and modulars.
3. It was more affordable for Serato to throw in Pulselocker features than any other updates.
For sure. I think my post was a bit of a knee jerk. Clearly Pulselocker would appear on paper to assist in more income for them especially with the mobile crowd.
As for Ableton not wanting to work with them – that’s all but been said in the Searto forums by their gang. They said at one point they were working towards adding “Bridge like features” to SDJ and polled readers for which features they’d like to see. Over a year ago :/
yeah, hmm, Bridge, hmm that was before Barack Obama wasn’t it. Ableton Inc, the Inc is an important bit to take into consideration. Um, I think Serato are happier with Pulslocker Rane and Akai than they ever were with Ableton Inc or Pioneer PLC
You think they need to still be partners with Ableton to introduce “Bridge-like features?” No, they don’t. They can confidently add these features to their existing software sans the partnership.
I think the “dj” bubble has popped.
Now it’s not a profitable venture as it was 5 or 10 years ago. How many ttables, controllers, cdjs and mixers can you sell?
I think, what we are seeing today, is simply a result of all the digital tech was new to us. We didnt know what would work for doing what. We’ve learned some things.
So what’s happening now, is we (including myself because i spend a small fortune on this stuff) customers are smarter and we have a better idea of what we want. More importantly, many of us can explain “why” we want a specific device or function.
clearly quite a few bruv.
I think there’s still a lot of room for improvement around sound sculpting and ergonomics. The parametric EQs of Hawtins new mixer point out that there’s still unexplored sound sculpting potential. Ergonomics are a big deal for me; no companies seem to be looking at their mixers as instruments by trying to improve the feel of playing them.
I’m more interested in what Denon has in store for us. The MCX8000 looks pretty awesome, Denon built turntables…what is coming in the near future? CD/Media players for sure. They might not become “industry standard” or installed in every club…but Denon, Allen and Heath and Technics have always been reliable for me in the clubs and mobile events.
I drove to Leeds to get the MCX8000 on launch day and been using it ever since (it replaced my SX). I love it, but it does have the odd quirk, nothing you can’t adapt to though. It will get better and better as time goes on with firmware updates I can imagine.
I think Denon will be Serato’s new chum and with the new TT coming out soon, Denon will be the one to watch.
Numark will be probably back to the mid-range brand and my money is on Denon taking over the high-end NS7 range of controllers. Moving platters on an MCX8000 will probably be next. Maybe even the embedded concept of Serato/NS7 we saw a few years back?
I don’t think it’s InMusic’s intention to stick with Serato. I think Denon’s using Serato until they get their own software figured out.
With the Denon DJ DVS1 supporting Serato, but also acknowledging the standalone Denon Engine, I think Denon’s working out all their hardware kinks before stepping away from Serato for their own software, and likewise for any other InMusic device. For the longest time, Pioneer was making controllers and mixers for Serato (some for NI, but not so much as they were not so popular). With the latest Rekordbox out, and the DDJ-RB and DJ-RR native to Rekordbox, it kinda symbolizes that shift that Pioneer no longer needs Serato.
I can imagine other companies doing this in the near future. Serato should really think of producing their own hardware.
I completely agree. I think all software companies will go in-house eventually. Even the big players could be bought up and used as embedded by bigger companies.
InMusic also own Torq which they killed off but would be a platform to start on. I still have a Torq Conectiv time code pack here still. I really liked Torq and feel it was a shame it was killed off. It finally got serious with Torq 2.0 then chopped instantly.
Maybe it’s time for InMusic to explore their options that already reside in their bulging portfolio?
It’s about building up the brand first until it gets to a point where it can sustain its self… Like the point of maturity where Rekordbox is now.
Dude, I totally have my Torq Connective too, and it’s such a shame that M-Audio’s Torq had to end too… It was way ahead of its time.
I think InMusic buying all these companies has somewhat slowed down production of all their projects. Perhaps it hinders their funding and marketing?
And definitely is about building up the brand first. Hence Pioneer DJ’s stuff.
It was way ahead of its time but you can see that when Chad left he took all his ideas and dropped them squarely into Traktor.
Imagine what Torq could have become? Sure, it was buggy and updates rarely came but when they finally nailed it at 2.0 it was pulled by its new owners.
Numark is sitting on this and maybe one day could find its way back under a different name and maybe a new look. Who knows if it could even be made into Engine and have a DJ program/USB music manager to rival Rekordbox?
I think I’ll give my Torq box to my brother-in-law who is stubbornly on traditional vinyl. It would be good for him to use it alongside it.
Regarding your Torq box, because Torq is obviously not being updated today, your brother-in-law could run timecode with the free Mixxx software. I highly suggest it to anyone who’s interested in digital DJing, whether controller or DVS.
In my opinion, if Mixxx becomes more efficient and universal, and stays open source, I think they can become the next best and free DJ software. The software right now is quite competitive with its basic functions. What it really lacks is effects, specific features (such as Snap and a decent midi mapping engine), and user friendliness.
I do like Mixxx. I used it a few years back but I’ve not downloaded the very latest. I saw the review and was impressed. He’s just an A-to-B mixer of 90s dance so he’s be more than happy with Torq but having an option is good for him.
This Torq unit is brand new almost (I bought it in 2008 I think!).
I’m pretty excited about what the future holds for Denon DJ too. Seems this article only mentions Pioneer, NI and Serato and to a lesser extent, Virtual DJ. Whilst those brands may well be the big players right now (with the exception of VDJ), I can’t see inMusic (Denon DJ, Numark and Akai, et. al.) just throwing the towel in.
Denon standalone units, numark computer controloers, akai nothing.
Agreed!
love my hs5500, just wish it didn’t have all these damn useless functions and buttons. i’d get very excited over a scratch focused rework of it.
Went to GC to try the mcx8000 yesterday.
Very impressive, good screen size, solid feel on the buttons, all in all pretty nice.
Not much of of scratcher, weird release lag.
Would prefer if each deck/screen stayed with the folder it was previously on, but maybe thats a settings thing.
Oh yeah? We forgot about Denon DJ. They have their own software. They have a flagship product and a beautiful turntable just when we thought no company would give us such a thing! We got 2, the technics and the Denon for us peasants! Can I just also point out the 4000 mk2 which is a really cool product as well. Big up Denon, high quality earns you a good reputation and a place in DJ hearts <3 <3 <3 Oh and large up mixars, I wanna see your controller so much! When are you leaking that shit! Mixars is a huge boost for Serato. Value, utility, it's got a certain cool factor as well with the blue timecode!
So should we expect a Rekordbox DVS box competitor to SL soon? It seems like the next logical step. Would Serato take a big hit or am I not really in tune with the times? Additionally, what does this mean for something like the S9?
I’ve also wondered if Pioneer DJ would put out a motorised platter unit. It’s a gap in their range that they have yet to fill.
A box like the screens from numark ns7mk3 but with embed computer (those who people call computerless standalone but it isn’t anyways) and soundcard running all rekordbox.
Surely it will not happen or almost in modular form factor, maybe as mixer…
I’d recommend making it a dial output device, not two of the same like the mixars deck, but two different decks in one device.
Not sure they would.
They always said that their emulation was good enough to not have the need for the mechanical weigh-cost involved with moving platters.
I know, but seeing how Pioneer DJ is filling every possible gap in their range, it seems to be one that has yet to be filled.We never thought they’ make a turntable.
We know that they now will try to expand on the producer side (Toraiz SP16) but still linked to the dj booth.
This is where NI should slowly get back to studio producer things leaving the live part to Pioneer… in theory.
But even if remix decks and stems looks like fails to me, NI might strike back with something huge if they want to stay in the dj niche.
And making it have filled the gap itself. It will be more versatile for them to make an standalone box (screen, soundcard and obviously the hardware internals of cdjs) for 2 or 4 turntable inputs (shaped like ns7mk3 screens) and filling another gap made by intel discontinuation of tablet chips research.
Do you remember those prototypes of mpc and ns7 standalone? They will never going to be released almost with intel mobile chps inside. In the other hand ipad pro has brung usb 3 adaptor with ipad charging which makes them perfect for being the new music computer (let’s see iOS 10 news at Q3 this year…)
I expect some news soon from NI in iOS meanwhile Pioneer finished its new sampler.
It’s not a gap in the market would be my guess. I mean the numark is a cool product and I think that satisfies whatever size that market is.
Pioneer already introduced Rekordbox DVS a bit ago.
http://rekordbox.com/en/products/rekordboxdvs
I think he means a hardware DVS box like the SL series from Rane. If Pioneer DJ hasn’t got one in the works, then they really should.
Ah, gotcha. Then again though, why would an external interface be needed if they’re incorporating USB/soundcards on their mixers?
For all the other non-Pioneer DJ mixers that are out there. All those Vestax, Ecler, Denon, A&H, Reloop etc mixers out there need an interface to do DVS.
Yes, although it doesn’t seem like Pioneer is wanting to play well with others lately so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they took the stance of “You want to use our DVS, then you have to purchase one of our mixers”.
we don’t use hardware boxes anymore, that was 10 years ago, we use controllers that have high quality sound and an audio interface.
But I have to buy a Pioneer mixer/other super expensive hardware to use it. A box could be an option if they want to offer a cheaper entryway to their ecosystem.
We have already seen a Rekordbox DVS competitor to Serato DJ. It’s called Rekordbox DVS.
This is a logical step I guess if you want to use the work logical, but it’s more of a business step because pioneer think they can have a bigger piece of the market.
“what does this mean for something like the S9?”
It means that if you buy or own an S9 you have more than one option for what software to use. This mean being a DJ is more fun.
But they don’t have a separate box (SL) is what I’m saying. I can’t have a mixer other than a Pioneer and use Rekordbox even if, for some reason, I find their software superior. Will they bother to make something like SL? Thinking through it now I’m guessing not as most DJ’s prefer something like the S9 these days which will eventually go to an S10 that is Rekordbox exclusive. Ah well.
”Innovation” could just be products DJs need/want that haven’t been created yet.
What do we need?
———————–
Something that works as well a CDJ/XDJ but is half the price, or less.
Turntables with built in screens like CDJs
A modular USB powered DJ rig from Pioneer
Thinner, smaller, lighter, yet tuffer gear. Think metal tops but thinner slimline sizes. The ”mixer height” thing can be fixed with zipper cases a la NI.
A mixer with a screen in it for DVS
More all in one/computerless systems.
More touchscreen searching with an onscreen popup keyboard, like a phone.
A USB-powered rotary mixer/midi box-o-knobs, for the stage and studio
what we don’t need:
————————
more performance pads
(most overrated ‘feature’ on gear, if you want them, use Dicers)
more gimmicks
Pioneer speakers (expensive garbage)
motorized platters on controllers.
they don’t even sort of feel like 1200s.
The first list are different prducts right?
yes of course
“Something that works as well a CDJ/XDJ but is half the price, or less.”
CDJs are awesome. If there’s anything I love more as a music lover and a DJ it’s CDs! Don’t even get me started on MP3 CDs!
I had a go on the XDJ it was awesome. But, I’ma stick with a laptop. I like laptops they do so much stuff so effortlessly!
“Turntables with built in screens like CDJs”
No. This is why you don’t work for one of these companies.
“A modular USB powered DJ rig from Pioneer”
I love modular with screens and cheaper the better! Cheap, but modular and simple. Modular should all talk to each other really well and upload all the information to Kuvo seamlessly about my current mood. I’d sign that privacy statement!
“Thinner, smaller, lighter, yet tuffer gear. Think metal tops but thinner slimline sizes. The ”mixer height” thing can be fixed with zipper cases a la NI.”
I love it when it’s thin, but really tough. Like a MacBook! Basically I love apple! But modular so it has to have screens, but also usb powered! And like an XDJ so no laptop reqwuired!
“A mixer with a screen in it for DVS”
See now your talking. Put the computer in the mixer but it shouldn’t be able to send emails because that could cause a privacy concern!
“More all in one/computerless systems.”
The XDJ is like 98% there, but it has to be thinner!
“More touchscreen searching with an onscreen popup keyboard, like a phone.”
How are Algoriddem not doing this already?
A USB-powered rotary mixer/midi box-o-knobs, for the stage and studio
Midi, but also Kuvo! Rotary is cool. I think the fader paradigm is shifting to a more rotary, touchscreen, usb type of scene.
“Turntables with built in screens like CDJs”
No. This is why you don’t work for one of these companies.”
HA!
Wanna bet?
I have a NIB 06 samurai that i’ll wager that the above is exactly what we’ll see very soon.
What you got?
Here’s simple, useful, practical innovation
A DVS soundcard / mixer that works over thunderbolt, eliminating latency so that dvs feels indistinguishable from real vinyl
Latency is inherent in digitalization itself. It could drop near to zero but never be zero if it has dependency on decoding a signal. In other hand for non die hard scratching with actual latency (less than 5 ms in djplayer) it feels indistinguishable nowadays.
Djplayer DVS is effin phenomenal. Sounds freakin great and performs great.
Wish i could get this freaking cuepoint pop gone, though.
Cuepoint pop = sticker drift?
Theres a popping sound when hitting cues.
Mmmm using in junction with dvs control or even without it? Did you notify Gàbor about it?
There will never be a replacement for human skill when it comes to “thrill level” and watching anyone rip it up on basic stuff will always have more credibility than any technical showcase…but on a commercial/club level where selling drinks and popular music from current playlists is played to non specific party people, then controllers and all the digital hard/software fits right in and always has/will…it’s the difference in painting pictures for a living or painting walls,
Well said
Good point.
For innovation to take place, there must be a perceived problem with the existing state. Controllers addressed the two key problems of a TT and CDJ setup: Portability of music and setup. Companies are now trying to “improve” performances by adding a sampler and breaking apart tracks to core elements but hese aren’t being taken up because DJs don’t perceive a problem with how they mix (AB tracks). So lets help the companies with ideas. What’s the next problem that needs to be fixed?
They should understand scratching is a music language and motorized platter the instrument. Then making the things with this in mind but right colors (not like vestax lol).
Create a device with the necessities of musician and make people understand why a piano cost some hundreds. Make different price levels and teach users about these and why there is life outside technics or pioneer realm. Start teaching djing/ttablism at music classrooms in schools… Wait! It never going to happen because scratching is subversive like graffity or bboying! It is like graffity gone designing or bboying won U got talent… :B
Djs didn’t need nothing of this because they are rich as start point. :V
i just don’t understand why serato isnt making hardware? Why just give up and let djtech supplant you as the goto brand for hiphop/turntablism?
Hardware would require a whole new department of staff to engineer and craft equipment and gear. Serato has always made software. I would think their limitation from doing so is lack of funding and profit to expand.
not really. the tech is out there already.
The tech is definitely out there. The question again is if Serato has the funding to develop.
I’m certain they don’t want to put out a mediocre product in a competitive market. It would symbolize unreliability for future products to come, especially when it’d be their first hardware release. Hence the need for an actual department that develops hardware.
I agree.
Serato has a leading hand in all hardware design that bears their logo.
a serato only branded digital deck (just copy the scs1d for goodness sake) which ran the software sans laptop, would be the ultimate “check me out I’m hot shit” device.
Not really and it was the Scs stanton system. It’s similar situatuion like stanton/NI broke but different scenario. Nowadays has more possibilities to survive Rane than Serato because if you look at StpVestax and Technics, these are focusing on Hifi luxury market and Rane is near (and I think ever better quality than those) but Serato… It hasn’t DAW (like Ableton), it hasn’t Stems or non-linear sequencing (like Remix decks or maschine), it hasn’t nothing than Pioneer could offer…
Well Serato could offer Culture with elearning software for scratching but even these idea has gone with the old Ceo (which made an elearning community for finger drumming wtf!) so…
Hardware embed? They pointed it with Intel at devs conference and it could be possible if they release an updated version of their “screen attachment for ns7” but I expect it more from Pioneer than them and, sadly, it will be the last nail in the coffin…
design is not manufacturing
I think the question to consider is whether Serato will be bought out or get an influx of cash from somewhere because they seem to be falling behind quickly now that Pioneer got bought (and Denon got bought too). There is so much Serato needs to catch up on, yet they have still have potential. If they were to merge or get bought, who do you think they could be bought by? InMusic? Maybe someone outside the DJ world who is trying to add that into their business (Harman or LOUD, etc.)?
I do think Serato needs to open up mapping jog/scratch wheels for any MIDI controllers. They only cerify certain ones for MIDI or HID, but it takes them forever to add new ones and they are not interested in adding support for older legacy models. I have an Akai AMX, and I would love a little tiny deck controller of roughly the same size (InMusic are you listening?). There are some MIDI ones out there but Serato won’t map it. I know that the latency and reliability is better if it is certified, but if Serato is so slow to catch up, just opening up the job/scratch wheel mapping would give people an option while they are waiting.
I just want something like this to work with Serato and my Akai AMX.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052VYJDQ
There is not enough market for all. Pioneer will be the new Serato with A>B mixing paradigm, Ableton for the non-linear and NI for the in between.
Pioneer with new maschine like sampler, Ableton push and NI maschine…
Serato? Numarkai?
These are low leagues and Serato has entered for non understand the market. HipHop? How many of HipHop djs buy new hardware or updates when Serato SSL users where teached on free upgrades and no sync? (with Technics to keep them real of course)
When Serato shifted with Itch2/Sdj and try to sell the Bridge nobody understood but everyone complaint so that’s it. Userbase waiting for Bridge and ranting for non support for sl1 ttm57 but also for Sdj licensing packs and so.
There is not enough market for all and HipHop was a big one in U.S.A but outside never was the winning horse. Today young Hiphop people doesn’t care about turntables anymore (and most of them jumped into dubstep/trap) meanwhile older people still wants “near to zero scratch” and not so easy features (because is cheat!) etc.
Serato lost itself in the middle of “nobody buys market”.
When these who kept stand up after years of uncompression realize that it was all about the music then evolve or keep themselves ranting as old school mindset but talking about dvs instead of whatever was cheatting in the decade before them and everyone forgot time ago…
The Serato name is synonymous with digital djing. Thats an ace up the sleeve nobody else has. Seems like they are slowly forgetting that.
Not sure… A CDJ has never been appealing to me and yes a motorized platters was the future for me.
No needles issue, no cables issue, no arm broken, no skipping track, no vinyl wear, no calibration, no need for mutli i/o soundcard. I know a lot of TT guys that went there.
I was hoping for a Numark MDX (midi) like the CDX/HDX but it never came and now it’s too late. Also a V10 is a bit late even if the need was there as I have seen last year. May be if they add a CDJ-like screen on it that would be cool.
Some products needed to be pushed a bit more imo, like the HS5500, why discontinued that beast ?
It was the futur then :
– screen
– dual layer
– standalone
– link
– keyboard
– motorized
An updated version would blow anything that is out even now in 2016 !
V7 wasn’t a big seller and make it bigger wasn’t the problem. The problem was technics myth and antisync. Now is later due it wasn’t perfect and numark drops updates as usual make the regular turntable even more eternal so anyone could use them with Sdj on Capitan but not V7. XP
If V7 should been class compliant maybe it will be a great purchase for ipad djplayer but again I can use a turntable with my is202 dock but no motorized controllers… Uh!
Exactly, that was my point : lack of updates on things that could become game changer.
Talking of TT, why not have class compliant ones with integrated hub for mobile DVS solution without the external soundcard hassle ?
Because is easy to sell soundcards to everyone than force non turntable users to buy them. The thing is turntable innovation didn’t seem revenuable from brand pov… But it doesn’t means no floor or interest in by users/underground developers. These have difficulties due to cost but maybe it’s time to kickstart things…
YES-a big part of the retardation of development was the NI switcheroo they pulled on stanton and didnt support the 1d, which they did because….they wanted to sell soundcards
NI is NOT good for this scene. I would urge everyone to look elsewhere and support other companies.
Most of them would innovate for the sake of innovation. I remember one of them wanted to push video sampler because it was the futur… Ahem there is may be 5 guys on earth that would need this to do some live video mashup. How is that could be the futur ? 5 people ?!?
But at the end, what users want is something useful and useable. You can evolve from mixing A to B, but you can’t break that paradigm and call it ground breaking revolution futur djing and be surprised for low selling numbers.
Instead of answering people needs, they’re trying to create needs for the people…
Video sampler without sync or dmx xD
Ive been wondering about this a lot, too. Now, you can simply plug a t92 into an ipad with the cck, and run the audio out the headphone for instant digital turntable, but i was wondering about an all usb setup, usb out the turntable directly into a usb port on the mixer.
Do you know about iOS actual class compliance limits? How many turntables do you want to connect this way? It will have mixer a soundcard too?
To manage all these endpoint devices and merge them you will need some kind of dealing protocol between them (more than usb handshake) and an upgradeable device for newcoming releases of hardware. Something like a… Computer.
What i was contemplating, was a simple change from rca to usb for audio out
But that’s not “simple” in the moment you put a dac it becomes a digital device and makes this more complex.
Hence the word “contemplating”
I’m not sure if my previous comment was deleted at answer the other but…
If you are saying “put a usb soundcard” it is far from “simple”. It has some implications as device and how it relates to others devices. Rca (analog audio) is an standard for dj equipment, usb class compliance not and usb “propietary” drivers less.
If you are saying “change the rca connector for an usb one” then it could be “possible” but trickery and you should (as manufacturer) notify users to avoid bad using due it isn’t the regular function for a usb connector (which is digital). Do you talk about the first possibility, right?
I have the djm 303. It has two usb inputs.
I’m always fighting the cables to get stuff up close to it, so i began to wonder about changes to the connections.
Don’t care about the tech behind the scenes, only concerned with improving on the mess of cabling.
But you were talking about usb interfaces or not?
Don’t care if you want but understanding the basics will help you in your moddings.
Havent gotten past the initial realization that i have a “usb out” turntable sitting next to a “usb in” mixer, yet they’re connected with rca.
Just one of thos things you notice that makes you scratch your head.
But the usb input of your mixer is for… Pendrive? It is all about understanding the words “endpoint device” and “usb dac” and so but yes you can find some examples of what you wish in example with Roland aira series. These have a mixer cappable to manage audio from the usb connected devices but only aira’s due they are crafted with this in mind from startpoint (aka the dealinf usb protocol I mention before), not compatible with any other usb audio interfaces inside other synths, mixers or so.
https://youtu.be/bpov08hXfmE (skip to 10’20”)
Maybe we could expect somekind of adaption of ethernet linking like cdj2000 or numark v7 (even hdx has some in this direction) and integrated soundcard or encoders workijg inside the unit to send info later to the main unit (mixer, dashboard or whatever the manufacturers do) or maybe they took the idea from Roland and make your wish reality but believe when I said it is not trivial or computerless (stanton scs.4d was a linux, cdx had a texas instruments uber chip inside and Pioneer toraiz is still in software development).
It could be standalone and maybe non full OS based but computerless will be expensive and low featured.
Mixer is usb input from laptop
TT is usb output to laptop, dont have a B to B cable to see what would happen if connected
It does work with vdj for dvs, with laptop between the mixer and tt
B to B usually means to of the same kind. If there is a USB A type from your mixer then it is an endpoint (need a host to work as usb interface). If you see a B type (female) it is usually a host one (like the aira mixer I pointed you, like usb ports in computers and like the usb in cck apple adaptor where the ipad is the host) also you can found them in the usb host to midi adaptors (like kenton or iconnectivity).
All of these units usually work as described then you have some of them with special behaviour like aira, oplab (doing hosting and some cv) or Pioneer nexus and shared features throught lan connector (but decoded in local machine before dealing the net protocol) so don’t expect working to connect 2 computerless not host units. That’s the reason behind “drivers” at computers and “class compliant” research. The bad news is meanwhile you could wrap some audio interfaces in Osx (aggregated device) or windows (with asio4all) it is still not possible in iOS or Android (only one audio interface supported) so making one for turntable plus another one for mixer is (again) limitate the sells (and even weird than sell soundcards like NI because you put one in every turntable) so it points to the dashboard solution, the standalone box from pioneer or closed protocol between their own units like Roland to make things reliable (don’t expect support for 3rd brand manufacturers due to drivers/class compliant blahblahblah)
It is clear?
And when it connects, its a nice vdj player too
You know, Rekordbox has DVS capabilities, yes? Pioneer isn’t just CDJs anymore, but turntables and controllers as well.
How exactly did rekordbox shake up the market…
Also, if innovation if Pioneer’s goal, regressing to using contact based line faders in the djm-s9 wasn’t a good start.
I wouldn’t say it’s shaken the market. It may or may not happen, but if it does shake, then it was an obvious success for Pioneer. One thing that’s clear: With Rekordbox 4.0, with CDJ/DVS/Controller features, Pioneer no longer needs Serato or Traktor.
With Pioneer DJ software and Pioneer gear, and Pioneer gear being so popular in mainstream music and House scene, Pioneer has created a DJ ecosystem for all types of DJs. All they have to do is create selling points to buying their software.
I think the only subculture they haven’t catered to, are button-pushing controllerists.
I guess I’m just not clear on how exactly “hey look we made a DVS system too” is a ‘grenade.’
I’m also not clear on why so many (skratch) djs are drooling over and buying up the djm-s9 and selling their 62s. The magvel fader is great and all, but as I said, going back to contact based line faders is straight up regression, and I don’t see enough/any features added over the 62 to make up for that fundamental backwards move.
It’s not just about the DVS part. It’s about how Pioneer DJ can go from a hardware only company utterly dependant on Serato for a fair chunk of its product range, to becoming a full competitor for not just Serato but every other software vendor too. It has stopped everyone in their tracks.
More or less overnight, the DJ software market saw a slice of market share taken up. It’s small right now, but its going to grow with every new release of hardware. And should Pioneer wish it, rekordbox can work with USB enabled mixers, making every such mixer a rekordbox ready mixer too.
And it would be foolish to think that they don’t have plans for the iOS market too. That’s a whole different market than needs to take this threat seriously too. Pioneer DJ did it to the desktop market, so why would they do it to mobile?
In any case, I’m always glad to see another company put money into the turntablist/scratch dj sector, particularly one as massive as pioneer. Without competition any industry will stagnate and prices will become inflated, just look at the current CPU market and intel…
Look, ‘motorized digital self contained no laptop player’ is the next big thing
Jesus, we’re only what 16 years into the digital age and people think its over, Wrong
Look at the 1200. How long had record players been around before it came out, what 60 or more years
Stop talking about how the v7 and others weren’t big sellers, because they were the first round if the digital players and weren’t close to having everything dialed in.
Even the 3900 would have been better if they’d left out the cd player. That just shows we’re still trying to figure this out.
Start with a simple simple simple player
1-play and scratch
2-3 cues and loop in/out
3-simple display
4-pitch
And copy the low flat profile of the 1d. Thats one thing jimbo got spot on. In fact, id blatantly copy the 1d but leave off all the extra buttons and knobs.
You listening pioneer?
The nearest are the modded sldz and hopefully Pioneer bring something to market but expect expensive price like their new sampler. Cd player maybe too, it’s Pioneer lol
This one with needle and there is another with iOS support. Maybe Pioneer take note but remember the price of plx1000 and the issues reported by users.
i am a scratch DJ and what you are saying i don’t need at all, why would Pioneer make things that people don’t want?
it’s a want purchase, not a need. People need bogroll, but people want bentleys.
What do you want/need that the market doesn’t have ?
I’m looking for an updated Denon HS5500 or a numark V10.
The 3900 was near there but as a standalone it can’t handle dual layer. (might bought a second hand one day)
nothing, i got all i need in order to play music and manupilate
How about a 10″ TT with HID resolution that could be run in either relative (with needle/cartridge and time code) or internal mode without the needle/cartridge. Spinning platters in both modes…10″ wide touchscreen across the top for waveforms and and USB input for standalone play……can link 2 for stacked waveforms.
Imagine the redundancies….
Cartridge shits out or tone arm gets bent or Time code gets scratched or laptop goes down….no problem you can still kill it in standalone internal mode with the ambiance add of spinning platters….with a hard drive or USB.
As a multi format (primarily) wedding DJ who does local and destination events this deck would be a game changer for me….pads like the ddj-RR…weight 5-7kg….
For the Rekord….SDJ stopped working for me (according to serato tech support) due to my use of iTunes as file management and library size of 98K songs….I switched to Rekordbox this New Year after winning a license from DJWORX (thank you Mark) and have been using it this season (including time code)and all I can say is it’s just better!(see pad effects)
I have to reset a bunch of analyzed beat grids but it’s fast and easy to do….best latency I have ever seen/heard!!!
I don’t miss serato and if Pioneer continues their amazing growth the boys in Auckland better start polishing their CVs!
http://djtechtools.com/2011/04/27/when-do-we-call-time-on-time-code/
Look at comments.
Pioneer: Their software is just so lite! It is well refined and DJing on pioneer stuff is a bit of a joy! It’s hardly a grenade! It’s more like a butterfly. But how is kuvo really helping DJs. I don’t want to sign a privacy statement and terms and conditions to be a DJ. I already have theFacebook and GCHQ for that! We are talking about a company that makes 2 grand mixers that are “industry standard” but we know that isn’t the whole market.
Serato: Serato DJ is great software. I love it, I’m sure many of you do. I think it’s funny that they want their customers to pay extra for the pitch and time algorithm. That was the first thing they made like 13 years ago haha. What are they gonna do what are they gonna do? Well they’ve just introduced streaming. They have a nice robust reliable element to their software. If someone who likes pioneer but also serato wants to buy a product they can always get the S9 which is less that half a year old. Or the 900 which is also brand new. But I guess DJ technology moves in cycles of 3 months (not.)
Native Instruments: I have a Z2. Value for money was amazing. Traktor is software that needs upgrading. Native instruments probably are working on it. So what’s the huge worry?
Innovation: The reason you think there is no innovation is because you don’t enjoy DJing. I have been a DJ for just over a decade, in that time I’ve seen DVS, 4 easy to reach cue points, a database system for keeping track of music played in a venue, Spotify integration, a live video streaming website for DJs, the birth of the home studio, a website where you can upload songs for collabs, turntables that are also microwaves, cloud computing, Instagram and snapchat marketing, Marc Ronson tearing down Notting Hill carnival,
…innofaders, £400 DVS high quality sound rubber button rubber knob hybrid scratch mixers that come with the full software and timecoded vinyl
£300 sexy grooveboxes… a DJ software that can send or receive external midi clock, a £190 controller from pioneer that comes with it’s own special software licence, DJ software that works on a watch.
DJ software from France DJ software from New Zealand
Yellow time code pink timecode, star wars timecode
the 10″ turntable
Fucking er flying pigs
A $200 turntable you buy from Walmart
Boiler Room, mixcloud, I mean I had 2 decks and a mixer as a kid, and if I wanted more well tough shit… Now it’s almost a little confusing how much choice there is.
So the answer is to simplify and streamline and stop logging on to this website because they use terms like Rekorbox Grenade. Er………
How about a setting that would make Cues “track independent”; 1-8 wouldnt be tied to a specific track, but could reside anywhere in the library.
Maybe the craft beer situation in the us could be helpful in finding some insights? Where there was once only these big companies, and somehow through providing high quality niche products, smaller companies took over.
Will there be a time in the future when i’ll go into guitar center to check out the latest offerings from raiden, frisk, djtech, or other boutique companies?
I mean you go into a liquor store here, and the craft beers are 90% of the stock.
Will the first major player to embrace a segmented; ie mixing as different from scratching as different from prod/perf be the one to thrive in the next decade?
Since when did Pioneer become the be-all-end-all when it comes to DJ equipment? As for recordbox lobbing a “DJ stun grenade into the DJ room”? What the hell are you talking about? Recordbox isn’t anything new, and I don”t see anyone selling off their gear to get a Reckordbox solution. Recordbox is nothing more than another option, nothing more.
And I just loved this quote; “NI wanted to be the industry’s Apple. But the cool new stuff delivered inside their relatively closed ecosystem has failed to really grab the attention of the masses”. I saw this coming 2 years ago. It didn’t grab the attention of the masses because they alienated a good portion of the masses. Learn and Burn NI.
Word. DJing is plain simple. Since DVS and Controllers nothing shocking happened. Stems? Remix Decks? Wow… Just a remix of stuff that already existed decades ago.
These news aren’t so focused to djs than producers and live act. The thing is for NI “The future of sound” is near to these fields than regular A>B mixing but NI is still the only one solution which gives you all the possibilities from A>B mixing to realtime remix mashup with turntable control. So even doing things “against” djs is evolving the scene even for turntablists. Obviously it could be other ways and it is not suited for everybody but decades ago I can’t scratch multitrack production with a regular turntable. The only true competition to NI in innovation dj field is bring by djplayer pro. Pioneer and Serato are trying to bring “Flip” sequencing and so (ala mpc) but again regular djs complaint asking for Bridge or missunderstanding the potential of “sequencing” (often call cheat non skilled blah).
So one could love or hate NI but they are implementing the best tools available in today’s standards or even trying to push new ones (like stems) and make them open source.
The beginning of the end for NI was dumping the jog wheels from their latest controllers. Their entire operation has downsized because of it. Dumbest move in the history of controllers.
Are you sure? Ableton never need them and it is the standard defacto for live gigs. NI is trying to bring the best of Ableton to djing and sync is needed meanwhile jogs are redundant when you use turntables. I think it is a smart move but as I said not suitable for everybody. Time will show us if they were wrong IMO.
Ableton was always about music production. NI is venturing off into territory that didn’t bring them to where they are now, while at the same time putting what got them to where they are (turntabl’ism), on the backburner. Time will tell, but if NI thinks they can take over dejaying with only token DVS support then it will never work. Want to bet in two years Jog Wheels will magically reappear on NI controllers? If not, then the downturn will continue.
Do you forget where NI comes from? They will doing vst years before they partner stanton… I don’t think they are putting turntablist in the backburner… There is no more room for them to make profit because all the regular djing needs are fitted and the new improvements are viewed as “backburning”. The interesting point is the same you argue towards jog was the same others argue before about turntable but now seems no jog (which was cheating for turntablist back in the days) is now backburning turntablists?
I understand you don’t like NI product and business model but it will not depend in our tastes (only) their success. Turntablist market is less interesant than live producing for them (I see it as evolution and most turntablist will jump or are jumping on) but instead of left them aside (and focus in sell maschine) they translate some features to keep djing innovative (remix decks, stems, traktor dj app, S8, D2…). Anyone could make their own more A>B or full remix… Serato or Pioneer still not have all the gaps filled and Ableton haven’t turntable support (so turntablist is performed with 3rd part software solutions and is far to be perfect or useful)
In two years nobody will care about jogs (almost non motorized) but you will have still turntable support in the big apps developers which still stand up.
“In two years nobody will care about jogs (almost non motorized) but you will have still turntable support in the big apps developers which still stand up.”
Want to bet? Its only NI that’s abandoning the jog wheels. Every other manufacturer is still releasing product after product that has jog wheels. How does NI abandoning jog wheels equal everyone else is doing so? I’m not understanding. NI doesn’t dictate what goes on in the hardware world. Denon, Pioneer, Numark, and plenty of other brands released jog wheel controllers all within the last 6 months. I cannot see the other manufacturers doing an NI. There’s plenty of money to be made by selling controllers with Jog wheels. Those companies aren’t going to abandon jog wheels in two years. They are not NI.
” NI doesn’t dictate what goes in the hardware world”
Well it done with tsi and making S2/4 the standard for most “ready-to-go” djs also with X1, Z1. Next round iPad pro.
All the other manufacturers were making Serato controllers which aren’t so popular and we saw few alternatives. The best Vestax, Reloop and Pioneer are the examples of the market.
Vestax died to reborn as Hifi (Hello my name is Technics)
Reloop was purchased after low revenue and high retoure products. It’s trying to keep alive.
Pioneer aware of NI supremacy (and after NI kicked their ass for cdj support) decide to make their own all-in-one ecosystem with turntable, dvs and hardware groovebox to counter attack.
If these aren’t points to market shift… What are they?
Back in jog issue. Jogs never took really off aside from venue-djs market. Big names use Pioneer, Traktor with turntables and grid controllers or Ableton (and hardware synths grooveboxes without computers like aira) so the only one brand which has a step in all nowadays is NI.
They don’t dictate the market maybe but they have a clear eye where it is and will be and try to force users to be “early adopters” buying their gear (like Apple) most of the time cannibalizing real innovators (and true early adopters) like Remix deck as a consequence of Ms.Pinky m4l/Serato the Bridge solutions. And they done a good job fitting the best of Ableton inside Traktor instead do the oppositte (Ms. pinky) or a Frankestein fail (Serato The Bridge) controlling their own evolution not relaying on third party software (neat, very neat). But NI drop jogs… Or better said keep the best and most accepted (in the true market for them): Turntables.
Keeping the hardware controllers for venue-djs (s2/4 mk2, Z1, audio6/10 class compliant compatible with iPad) and offering to these segment what they expect: pads and faders (groovebox, stems…) for turntable lovers and all-in-one solutions for venue-djs.
I said nobody will care about jogwheels because the top of this field in hardware for venue djing is done with S4mk2, Ns7 mk3 and Pioneer controllers/small all-in-one.
We could expect some few incremental upgrades but not bells and whistles because there is no need. Innovation in venue gigs are coming from live looping artist and 3 music combos (or 2) due to financial crisis. In the high side of the spectre you find d2/S8, Push 2, Airas, Nexus cdj, machinedrums (which has released a keyboard mmm) and ToRaiz when it will ready.
All of these users when need a jog they use a turntable and NI knows it. Maybe them finally release a motorized turntable controller as answer to maschine-like Pioneer groovebox. Who knows?
At last NI is not backburning turntablism, it’s only putting every thing in this place and turntablism is relevant but not the most one nowadays. Scratching with controllers is still not true accepted as turntablism by old school so maybe are turntablist who backburned their essence and find themselves in a musical ghetto aside from market. Which is not necessary a bad things because left them to keep it real and don’t care about market and so but them is not NI fault to drop jogs once again. The day where NI drop dvs support will be an statement to turntablism meanwhile they still are the most all-domain solution.
Once again we could blame or assume, ranting or dealing with… But only time will told us. I have all the tools for my trade… Do you have yours?
That’s the true important thing.
There are a few tricks that can be done on jog wheels that i can’t do on motorized decks, because they lack touch sensitivity.
Not a big concern, but something I remember.
I’m saying there may be a place for jogs and people who want to use controllers, and still be creative in a “ttablism” way.
Sure but again from brand pov (any brand) why to implement or keep them as a product?
Technics was an stablished equipment abused creatively creating an artform… Do you believe there are enough people doing the same for jogwheels? How to dare with rejection from old schools and all the new ways of interaction nowadays? Back in the days few people had any similar to an smartphone or cheap grid controllers (or samplers) and so which made them creative with few tools…
Touch sensivity in jog controllers acts as switch not really analog value and it’s useless in motorized jog because when something moves and you touch it… It bends or stop.
If someone wants to research in this field then it could be better try to implement z axis (true touch sensivity) like haken audio or Roli seabords as also new iPhone 6s has (force touch 3d touch) but justifiying keep jogwheels “as is” doesn’t make sense from brand stantpoint and these release gear not us (in relevance terms. Anyone could develop fresh ideas of course but not everyone make products or disrupting technology)
Make and maintain technology is more than produce an idea. It’s make profitable because if you fail it will be bankruptcy for your business. That’s why one brand could sell the best turntables one day and the worst cdj the next one and dissapear (technics) or the most innovative controllers for turntablism (Vestax) or most claimed scratching software (Serato) and dead trying to find what “market” loves because their customers aren’t enough to pay de bills and errors (sldz, faderboard, the bridge)
The drama comes when people think their tastes are the best (etnocentricity) and make bets for non viewing their ideas crafted calling for apocalipsys.
I will love to see some of them happen and there are lots of good jog controllers out there (even from discontinnued vestax) but argue against NI for trying to keep them alive in shifted market (or discrete revenue almost) is like shouting in desert for water. Maybe it will rain but not for shoutting.
Jm2c
“it’s useless in motorized jog because when something moves and you touch it… It bends or stop.”
Thats incorrect.
When simultaneously using other controls; cues especially, the play does not stop when moved (denon hs5500)
Explain it further, please.
Don’t have time to go into a lengthy answer right now but, the folks who purchased the S2/S4, and used the Jog wheels capability. Do you think they would stop using Jog Wheels because NI’s controllers now do not include them? Or do you think they would just simply move on to another brand?
They will continue using S2/4 mk2 because they still work with the software. Why should they stop using it? S8 didn’t replaced regular A>B mixing cappabilities only give another path. That’s S8 not S4mk3…
Take in mind one thing Tony, if NI release an mk3 of these I expect they will have jog surely but as it does all the regular A>B dj needs It makes sense NI expanded their toolset with F1, X1 mk2 and now the S8/D2 for those who want live mashing and remixing. The point of modularity is to complement not to substitute even one dj could make a sesion with an X1 and analog mixer even using the internal soundcard of the laptop. Look at Serato, soundcard was the dongle for years.
Why the release of S8 means you can’t plug your turntable on it and DVS? They make it an addon, ok… But it still a feature and now this “addon feature” is in Sdj too.
Why should they stop using it (S2/S4)? Because better options are now available. But that’s a personal choice.
Can the S4/S2 still get the job done? Yes. But what if they wanted waveform/screens on the unit showing track info, and illuminated jogs showing needle position? They might want to lessen the dependence of always looking at a laptop (like I did). If they wanted the next level of progression, and still needed to have jog wheels, then NI doesn’t have anything for them. Folks will move on to a brand that has what they’re looking for.
And I’m not sure why folks think that carrying around an S8 plus 2 turntables is a valid option for a DJ looking to lessen the amount of equipment needed? Home setup that’s fine, but to have to carry around two TT’s on top of an S8, seems backwards to me. Especially when NI had the S2/S4 that could do the same (provide jog wheels to do tricks) all in one package. Now we have to make compromises and carry extra equipment all because NI decided to ditch the Jog wheels? Just seems backwards.
NI’s is lacking a complete current (all in one) controller solution, that would at least satisfy the guys who like jog wheels, and would want newer features. They used to have units like that (S2/S4) but they’ve since given up adding any type of features to them (other than the MK2’s, so much for innovation), and are now trying to advance controllers without jog-wheels.
I’m no DMC champ. I don’t need to lug around TT’s all the time. Why should I? All I need are jog wheels to perform the limited tricks I can do. NI had units that could satisfy that need in a nice little package. Now NI is telling folks to drag around turntables, or use old outdated equipment (S2/S4).
Mmmm no. If you want screens use an IPAD. More portable and full compatible with S2/4 mk2 and al the basic stuff (including scratching) that you described and freeze mode come first at ipad so… If you want to rant, ask NI for updated iOS app (nearly 2 years without relevant upgrades) but don’t say there is no screen… I remember some videos pointing even the possibility of videomixing…
About S8 plus turntables… They aren’t pointing to carry more, in the opposite they let you mix A>B with an ipad and if you want a Z1 or S2… S4… But use turntables at Club or gigs but as “ryder” (big gigs as I described in the previous post)
NI is focusing in Pro and bedroom/venue is the “in the middle” which seems less important for the big boys (Pioneer, Technics, Vestax, Rane…) but it seems drove by finantial crisis and too much options.
There are other brands you can use as a controllers (without screens sadly and needing for NI soundcard if you want DVS because it’s a business) and still use the features. If you need new ones (remix decks/stems) then you should go for D2 (I think is the most interesting with one turntable doing it not so heavyweight set) and combine it with your non NI controller. It lacks in DVS but maybe NI release something which fits in between… Really is not a big gap but there is. Also there is another with non F1 to ipad hut I don’t feel Traktor iOS so incomplete, only a matter of fun. That’s why use Djplayer (screen, steems, dvs, any midi controller…) and it’s cheap.
Again I see a lot of innovation in iOS realm a lots of complain instead people pushing limits and taking some risks (not pointing at you Tony, just in all the topic discussion) and maybe it’s a problem of workflow and constraints.
The problem with NI is that they don’t have a clue about product perception and what folks consider to be cool. That’s what it all boils down to. It boils down to what folks consider to be cool. If folks see a bunch of (sry to seem offensive) dweebs messing around with stems they aren’t going to give it a second look. NI figured this out way too late in the game and brought in “cool” dejays to showcase their products. Still didn’t work. It still didn’t work because at the heart of NI, they shifted away from the coolest part of dejaying which is turntablism. They threw away the very thing that creates the most buzz, and what most people seem to be able to directly relate to (weather those folks can perform the tricks or not the turntable-trick scene is what draws them). NI threw away the perceived cool part of their operation and left themselves with dweebs and thought that somehow they were still going to be buzz worthy. They thought that they could “Change things” without realizing that the masses do not accept changes in trends from dweebs.
Indeed.
Plus, even when they do demo good turntablism, like Rafik’s redbull performance, which is flawless; it’s still so cookie-cutter repetitive; “scratch-drum-scratch” like all the rest.
Not everybody lives in that little berlin microcosm.
How about a mixer that comes with an additional bluetooth crossfader like the mixfader?
This http://www.anandtech.com/show/10385/samsung-begins-mass-production-of-pm971-bga-ssds could ease things for controllers/mobile DJ tools. Pair it with soon-to-be cheap 10-14 nm CPUs, and add the lowering price of no (relevant) latency connectors. So, features like Modularity or Integration with sensors (and I am already using Leap Motion and admiring its unstoppable development), could be made fluidly usable. This talking about DJ mass market products.
I won’t need to wait for DJ manufacturers, I already have a nice i7 USB3 laptop and am able to connect my out-of-this-world finnish controller & software + Novation XL, for a layered future setup that neither Traktor, DVS or Rekordboss may dream to catch… ///What I am yet missing is said modularity, reduce latency and get my VSTs and extra sensors/keyboards/gadgets all onboard on a glitchless realtime integrated experience. Which comes back to the need of connected latency-less processing power. For decades I expected that power to come in shape of a super DJ Mixer, nowadays I am hoping for modularity and good connectivity.
I might attain such with a 2016 Dell XPS Thunderbolt3 15incher (on a 14″ size laptop) but I am not jumping ship just yet. Waiting for Q2 2107’s cannonlake might make it a more sure jump, while I still have so much yet to learn and achieve with my actual set up.
By the way, had you weigthed that DJs today may yet have tons to discover about what can be done with their actual gear before acquiring new one?
Plus. would our DJ manufacturers awake to the fact that SABRE DAC chips had lowered the noise floor to over 125 dB with rather easy implementation and “Sabre ES9018 is not solely a DAC. Its an ASIC with patented
upsampling and jitter reduction algorithms, embedded S/PDIF receiver and
so on… It’s also a modular 8 channels DAC” costing US$40.
‘Course I may get a chinesse external SABRE DAC/interface to get either those specs or unconverted pure digital AES3 to the venue amplification mixer, but I would love DJ sites to spread the news so Stanton, DENON, NI, Numark, A&H, Rane, etc. get to spend $40 (instead of $5) in their DACs and so we DJs and audiences get to a real(not the advertised usual glare) new level in sound quality at the source, where it matters most. Thanks.