no jog wheels controller

DJs — do you even want a jog wheel anymore?

no jog wheels controller

Like most of the DJWORX thinkpieces, this article started as a debate in the worxlab. These (often lively) talks inevitably end with the words “we should write an article about this”. So here I am, arguing the toss about why manufacturers keep sticking piddly jog wheels on their controllers, and whether the time has come to look at a workflow without them.

The fact is, that for a very long time DJs and turntables were completely and undeniably intertwined. This is why it seems that jog wheels are almost always used as a marketing technique for new gear. Videos from the likes of Vestax and Numark show scratch champions and scratch performances more than straight up mixing, even though a tiny fraction of the DJ community would incorporate any into their sets. Yes, one could argue that scratch routines are more interesting than videoing a DJ set, but the 502,117 subs on Boiler Room’s YouTube channel (including mine) would disagree. Those videos do more to show ‘real world’ use of DJ gear than manufacturers could ever hope for.

Vestax VCI-380 Serato ITCH DJ Controller review

The case for jog wheels

Let me get one thing straight here… I’m not saying jog wheels are completely irrelevant. Rather, when incorporated into a controller, they take up a huge amount of space when there are already great workflow alternatives. There’s obviously going to be a use-case for platters when done right, as shown by the amazing hardware of the NS7 II or Pioneer’s current flagship DDJ SZ, but why do all controller makers feel the need to add them to everything?

One of the most popular pieces of DJ controller hardware in the world, the Traktor Kontrol X1 (either mk1 or mk2), has all the necessary transport functions without nary a pitch fader nor jog wheel. The X1 can often be found in pairs, allowing control of four decks, which, with the help of the dreaded ‘sync’ button, is the staple of Traktor DJs all over the world.

DJs — do you even want a jog wheel anymore?

The other notable platterless controller is the Novation Twitch, a two channel mixer/transport/cue surface which kinda introduced touch ribbons to DJs. It’s a decent bit of kit, but never really took off, perhaps simply due to being too ahead of the curve. Personally, I think it’s owed a revisit, perhaps with a four channel version. In fact, there must be a market for what is essentially two Z1s and two X1s as a single unit… Traktor Pro 2 is practically begging for it.

I had a thought the other day that if I was asked to DJ a friend’s wedding again, I’d probably just take my Z1 and X1. Last time, I had my full Traktor Scratch Pro 2 setup, including my trusty 1210s and a X1. This was visually impactful with the crowd, particularly the older party-goers, but I literally never touched the pitch and only used the platter for cueing.

As far as industry precedent goes, there’s no shortage of evidence that jog wheels are no longer essential, particularly when you move away from commercial music. From the likes of Dubfire, to Richie Hawtin and any number of Traktor and Ableton DJs, there are so many alternative ways to play your music.

Gemma Furbank

UK Techno heroine, Gemma Furbank, who is probably the most famous professional I know, took some time to give me her take on this. Gemma uses a VCI-400.

“The reason I don’t use them as jogs, is because I use Ableton which of course isn’t set up like a decks mixer. I have mapped the whole thing from scratch to give me 4 channels with EQs and FX mapped to each channel. My jogs I have mapped more FX to, one for A and C channel the other for B and D. If I used Traktor, I would 100% use the jogs, but I haven’t fallen in love with Traktor.”

Gemma did concede that, much like myself, she does miss more traditional mixing and has done recent gigs back on CDJs.

Hell, Felix Da Housecat even made a promo video for Native Instruments showing off how he uses two X1 mk2s, the way Hawtin pioneered (pun sort of intended).

JOG WHEELS ARE COOL BUT…

There’s no denying the tactile advantages of jog wheels, but for a basic controller, I’d argue the advantages of going jogless mostly outweigh the disadvantages. One advantage of not having jog wheels is how much easier they can be mapped to Traktor. It’s well known the HID layer of interactivity is blocked to the user and only available to approved devices. You can get a more compact controller with better use of space.

Another advantage would be to get rid of deck “layers”. Stuffing four channels into a controller with just two jog wheels and then adding a button to switch layers is just a massive fudge, and brings about a whole host of issues, not least with the pitch slider and any deck-specific settings. There would be plenty of space for four deck control without them.

And there are certainly alternatives that can make better use of the space. Touch strips have started to become fairly common on DJ hardware. From the CDJ2000 Nexus, to the X1 mk2 and NS7 II, all manner of gear has them.

I even had a thought about what could be next: why not a curved touch strip that simulates the edge of the platter? With LED feedback, the strip could double as other functions, much like you get already. You could even make use of the space inside the curve for some other controls.

SUMMING UP

As a conclusion, I completely understand the joys of traditional mixing, but that on the whole, controller jog wheels are woefully inadequate for the job. Recently, the likes of Pioneer and Numark have pushed the boat out a bit and provided larger platters to play with, but those are reserved for the high-end hardware that’s out of most of our reach. Manufacturers need to explore other ways of controlling the music that take into account the needs of the 21st Century DJ.

Most control platters are kind of just “does the job”, which is simply a detriment to the user. I’d rather see some work done on stripping them out and providing more specialised hardware with them, or finding other ways to simulate the way we did things with turntables. Companies can then create specialist “scratch controllers”, be it as single-deck addons or completes.

OVER TO YOU

Do you use your jog wheels for more than just cueing? Are they little more than coasters or beer mats? Or will jog wheels always be an essential part of your setup?

  1. I find the jog wheel one My Xone:1D great for file browsing and loading. The 4 click points at 12, 3 , 6 and 9 o’clock are sheer bloody genius. I use 3 and 9 o’clock clicks for loading into a or b

  2. I stopped using jog wheels a LONG time ago. I don’t scratch so I have no real use for them, when beatjumping and scrolling gets the job done pretty much as, if not more, efficiently. The only reason I still prefer the DJ layout and format is because it is intuitive: two/four decks, a crossfader, and control on either side.

    I totally understand the comfort of jog wheels, since it’s what most people are comfortable with and it “makes sense” but still, they aren’t exactly the best solution in this day and age. For browsing, all you need is an endless encoder, for seeking all you need is two buttons. Hell, you can use two buttons and have beatjumping under a shift layer, or vice versa. Or do what Novation did and include two touch strips, which take up a LOT less space.

    I don’t see the need for specialist scratch controllers anymore, really. If someone really wants to scratch, they will be able to buy two turntables for just around the same cost, if not less, of those scratch controllers, and static platters are VERY different from motorized.

  3. They don’t have to be huge, I use them for searching quickly through tracks, don’t scratch, something like the Denon D9000 size was big enough to do searching and bending of pitch if needed.

  4. I want to keep them even though I don’t use them for mixing half of the time, but for a quick scratch they will do. And for nudging they are perfect.

  5. I tend to try and cue the track in with mine just for the sake of using them, and to be honest it feels much more ‘DJ’ like when i do. i will always manually match beats together so for me the nudging facility is essential. One of the huge things I’ve found them an advantage for is trying to set the Cue point on the first beat of the track (I’m not even sure how i would do it without platters???)

    The bit about Felix da Housecat made me laugh, that guy needed to get rid of his manually mixing ability because its nothing short of terrible, I’ve heard him mixing on Radio 1 and the train wreck was worse than someone who had been mixing 20 days, never mind 20 years. so i bet he was over the moon when sync was invented.

  6. I was thinking the very same thing this morning, I still use them to nudge a track if I am playing soul, funk & reggae (when I’m not using DVS), but with dance music I hit sync and use the jogs for crazy FX maps (which can be mapped to a fat rotary anyway). I guess it’s down to what style of music you play and the “image” you want to portray. If my next controller didn’t have them I wouldn’t miss them as long as there was an intuitive way maintain or improve functionality. As STU-C says one of the biggest uses is quickly setting cue points / loops but careful software programming can take care of that. One disadvantage of jog wheels is the real estate they consume, I would be in favour of direct mapping rather than layers so if by removing them we could gain additional hardware controls … i’m for it.

    1. see you play Soul and Funk, thats the very reason i kinda need the platters, i don’t mess about pre preparing tracks at home and some of the drum loops at the start of these type of tunes make it a nightmare identifying the first beat of the track, maybe i just need to be less lazy with my preparation and then i could get away with not using them too.

      1. to be honest I prefer two TT’s and a mixer, but we have to move with the times …. and who doesn’t enjoy a good button bashing from time to time …. e.g. tonight I’ll be using SL’s and a DJM-T1, the smallest Trakor Scratch outfit as I will be playing mostly original vinyl, but tomorrow is electro night and I’ll be hitting sync and praying all my prepped cues / loops are tight ….all digital so why not take advantage of that fact.

        1. my setup for gigs is an XDJ-R1 and an iPad at the minute, aside from selecting tracks on the iPad i use it like a standard DJ setup, ill set the first beat cue up using the platter then just mix CDJ style. if I’m honest the platters on the XDJ are terrible so i should maybe look into not using them

        2. lol@ praying its all prepped correctly:) there is always something in your mind with software that it will crash isn’t there, i stand there nervous all night which is stupid really because all the years of using CDJs which are essentially software driven DJ units and nobody was ever worried they wouldn’t work

  7. Hi Mark, I have been jogless for a while now. Using Traktor, 2*x1 a z1 and an F1. It is a pretty cool setups and I love the ability to map and change my workflow. Gives me so many more controls to get creative with.

    Do I miss the jogs, well quite frankly no. Accept when I feel the need for a scratch then I have to switch to a different controller I have.

    I would love to see more controllers like the Twitch come out. lso I think what would be great is for NI or someone else to make a jog wheel only modular controller. There is the Behringer Pl1 but I would like to see something with a bit more quality to it. It does not have to be over complicated. Most people only actually scratch on one side anyways and you can add how ever many you would want to the system.

  8. The more modular controllers get, the less likely it is that jog wheels will continue to be included, but the look of all-in-one controllers still follows the two decks and a mixer blueprint. Part of the reason I bought my controller was that it represented my previous CDJ set up but saved on space that I no longer had for a traditional-style set up. So for people who still want a DJing experience that feels traditional but is space saving, all-in-one controllers that include jogs make perfect sense.

    1. yes jprime I like this. The fact that you made this is funny. DVS ready what a win win. This people that actually agree with the article win and so do another type of DJ. MORE MIXER CONTROLLERS. more AMX more Z1 maybe by other companies! Let’s all win!

  9. NOOOO! Don’t even try to get rid of the Jog wheels!
    Jog Wheels are the best part of a DJ controller.
    Here is my top ten list why the Jog wheel should remain on the controllers.
    1. back spins
    2. fast forward
    3. fast reverse
    4. slow transitions.
    5. marking cue points
    6. quick loads
    7. juggles
    8. manuel pitch control
    9. video control
    10. scratching essential part of being a DJ even DJ Tiesto practices this technic…

    1. I’m not saying we should get rid of jogs completely, just that not every controller should automatically come with them… If a manufacturer can only fit some crappy cheap platters, why bother?

    2. All of that can be done on touch tablets (something you can add-on to what you already have), but on a tablet, you can use tilt and pinch gestures to manually control loop size or control anything with an x-y interface… like a KORG chaos pad.

  10. I’ll just say it. Big jogwheels, platters, and crossfaders are luxury controls in the DJ setup. They really aren’t needed (unless turntablism techniques are required)… but still everyone just loves ’em. To remove them seems to be a divorce from the roots as you cannot do turntablism without them.

    Perhaps what we’re really missing is a REASON to jettison jogwheels, platters, and crossfaders. The traditional “two turntables and a mixer” visual is still the defacto standard DJ setup. There really hasn’t been a replacement of that. Until we do, jogwheels, platters, and crossfaders are here to stay.

    Possible contenders: X1s and/or push-button grid controllers. Do I see that replacing the defacto standard? Nah.

        1. ive not seen you DJ so can’t comment, but i was referring to my personal situation, i like the part of keeping tracks in time with a nudge of a platter, be it analogue or digital

        2. p.s. i agree with the part about 4 channels and 2 platters, id end up getting lost with which one is controlling which, I’m looking at buying a DDJ-SX and I’m thinking its gonna take me months to get used to flipping controls

            1. personally i like sticking acapellas over tracks so id like to have a 3rd deck as i find it easier to do than it is on 2 decks. if i do purchase an SX then i know its gonna be a learning curve getting used to flipping control from on to another. I’m thinking always swap the controls from the current playing track, leaving 2 channels to use at any one time. it just means you are always adjusting the track thats mixing in (something i need to get used to as i adjust both depending on the dynamics/volume of each track)

  11. I now use traktor dj on the iPad with a z1. I love this and wish they would make a z1/x1 cross over for traktor dj. The only reason I’d use jog wheels is for cueing but as I can do that with touch I don’t need anything else. To a better effect the xone:dx did this brilliantly with small jogs just for scrubbing the track, wish a&h would revisit this.

  12. I use a Traktor Kontrol X1 Mk2 and have found it a perfect alternative to CDJs, I don’t miss jog wheels at all since you only use them to nudge which the touch strip handles perfectly. Granted I learned on 1200s using Serato but by the time I really got into DJing I wasn’t inclined to spend $1000s on CDJs when I could get a $200 X1 and have all the same facilities (assuming Traktor Pro 2). In short I’m sure some people will say “but without a jog, it doesn’t ‘look’ like you’re DJing”. But then the question becomes, do you come to watch a DJ…DJ, or do you come to hear him/her DJ. For me it’s always been the latter, so whatever gets the people dancing. Use that thing, because it always was and will be about the music not what you play it on.

  13. Rather than consider the death of Jog wheels, I’d like to see a progression of the jog wheel. There are multiple vids proving jog wheels as a viable scratch tools but the battle (two deck and a mixer) layout is a little redundant. Scratching on a controller – yes. Beat juggling using jogs – what’s the point. Like it or not, cue point juggling is the next level of juggling. Don’t get me wrong, turntable juggling is a craft that few master and most definitely is a vibe that needs to be kept alive but if you are making a move from decks to controller I fail to see why you’d just continue a decks workflow and not embrace the tech at your finger tips. All-in-one’s have had their day and modular controllers seem to have a bright future. What we haven’t seen is a decent deck (modular) controller that you can add to any set up if you so wish. place in any position of your set up that suits what you do. Breaking the jog wheel away will give in new life and a dedicated following rather that frustrating those that do not require one. New workflows can be imagined for a separate jog wheel and Marks Settle dreams of a jog wheel/crossfader plug and play scratch box could be just what is needed.

    1. I’ve wanted a single deck controller made by pioneer for ages. i had the denon sc2000 but it was pretty terrible so sold it. if i could get 3 separate single deck controllers that link together then feed directly to my laptop id be more than happy

  14. Cutting with my S2 is actually pretty fun and quite accurate. I do a few skratch drops at gigs to let the crowd know what I’m about. Don’t get rid of it.. Expand on it.

  15. Cutting with my S2 is actually pretty fun and quite accurate. I do a few skratch drops at gigs to let the crowd know what I’m about. Don’t get rid of it.. Expand on it.

    1. I say get rid of the thing Alana. For the space they take they add little value musically trust me. Visually performance wise yes they add that dimension. Try a set without touching them.

      1. My last 4 live sets wouldnt have happened without platters – I still mix by ear and used to really dislike nudge buttons. If controllers remove their platers then they wont be getting any more money from me….
        I have played many sets without the jogs and it’s great, but just a different dynamic entirely. Great for techno and using remix decks launching loops and such, but for me loss of the platter is like taking the steering wheel off a car…..

  16. One other things about jog wheels on the controllers is sizing and spacing. Having like a lot of folks grown up on scratching on 1200’s going to tiny jog wheels is a pain in the butt. When your hands / fingers and arms are so tight together. Also means that other controls are squashed into whatever space is left.

    Adding a pic of my current setup, look ma my training wheel have dropped off.

    1. is that Custom mapped to Traktor or is it just plug and play??? looks like each unit is designed to control a particular section of the software (pardon my ignorance I’ve not used them before)

      1. My setup is overkill and is custom mapped to way I want it. I found mapping files online for each unit I liked and just tweaked them a little bit. You can still just plug and play it out of the box.

        No reason why you could not have just the Z1 mixer and one of the X1’s for transport / looping / hotcues and FX etc. Saying that you can replace the Z1 with a soundcard and a standalone mixer.

        There are downsides, but for general mixing duties this works for me.

        1. cheers for the insight, i did notice there is about 50 different FX buttons on those controllers combined, i assumed you had customised some of them, it does look pretty cool to use actually

          1. Yeah and the shift and each FX button changes the fx groupings. So you can create your own combo sets and switch to them. The trouble is with all these controls is remembering which is which. That comes with practice and mistakes of course.

      2. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. I mean, I like effects too but, damn…
        I know I’m not the only one that thinks you don’t have to be a turntablist to use DVS these days. Every residency I’ve ever had has had either Technics or CDJs with Serato. I’m definitely not hating on the controller guys. I’m just saying this is a divisive question and, I think people forget that a lot of DJs are still using TTs.

        1. I like your use of the phrase “crazy pills” and the word divisive. I actually felt like I was being trolled when I read the article. And that’s a journalists job anyway this guy should write for the Daily Mail or be a professional troll for a political charitiy like common purpose

          1. coming from a guy who wants to write Bitwig controller scripts and wishes he owned an octatrack! But is it even a DJ controller if it doesn’t have jog wheels. Maybe you don’t need a pitch fader! cos, yknow, sync. So fuck off and use a midi keyboard then LOL

    2. I have a very similar setup, with an X1mk2 + Z1 + MF3D + MF Twister:

      X1 is largely transport (effects section remapped to EQ isolation), MF3D handles effects in Traktor, Twister handles effects in Ableton (external routing in Traktor into Ableton).

      There’s some other junk in the shot–recorder, USB charger–but you get the idea.

      Personally, I’m still attracted to the notion of an all-in-one controller simply for travel, cable management, setup time, etc. I would *love* to see a large all-in-one where the jog wheel section snapped out with modular options. I’d replace the jogs with a 4×4 button grid and a 4×4 encoder grid and call it perfect…

    3. This is where I’m heading. Currently on a X1 Mk2 and Z1, already factoring in a F1 and potentially another X1, but am looking at getting a 4 channel mixer.

      Out of interest, are you using 2 or 4 decks with the set-up?

      1. Mostly 2, but the Z1 is mapped for 4 deck control. The filter / FX button switched the channel if I want it. You can also change the F1 to make that extra channels.

        Having a 4 channel mixer and an external audio card like the NI audio 2 and mix analogue is a way to go.

        Having a 4 channel version of the Z1 would be awesome. The Z2 does it but at over double the price. That said it would depend on what you want to run on the other decks. Mine are both remix decks, although primarily I only use deck D for that.

        I would really like a single platter modular controller to go along side this setup and use it for all decks, but deck C primarily and have it loaded with scratch sounds.

        Anyway you cannot have everything and I don’t know how much longer I can wait for NI to bring out something new.

        1. Cheers man. A 4 channel Z1 would be awesome, but the price would probably be prohibitive given that the Z2 isn’t even full 4 channel, just 2+2. I’m looking at a Behringer CMD MM1 which, despite not having a built in soundcard, has 4 faders, 4 sets of EQs and a powered USB hub. That plus an Audio 2 (if you’re happy to use the internal mixer in Traktor, which I am) and you’re sorted.

          But yeah, re-mapping the Z1 to switch to decks C/D is a very workable solution to keeping the costs down..

          1. The Behringer modular controllers got me excited when I first saw them, they have the right idea of what modular should be, with all the controls and at a low cost. Unfortunately the end build quality is what stopped me from buying them.

            I would pay double the price for those Behringer controllers if they used better components. 4 channel midi mixer, awesome, I have not seen anyone else doing that. The PL-1 platter controller was another awesome ideal. I would love to have something like that slightly bigger and with a stiffer jog wheel and better, brighter deck select buttons.

            Basically they made just boxes of buttons and knobs you could do what you wanted with in a small form factor. Which is what I do with my current setup, it just feels better on the NI stuff and not going to break anytime soon.

            The other thing you have missing is the visual feedback, on the Behringers they put led indicators on the rotatory encoders so you could see where they were set to in the dark. I have the X1 mk1 leds set to give level feedback for each channel so that is something. Useful if you have a sound coming from somewhere and you are not sure on which deck it is coming from.

  17. never liked jogwhhels tbh. For nudging, I much prefer simple “+” & “-” buttons and a long-throw pitch fader, and for scratching it’s either a turntable or an SC3900 for me. Give me someting like a twitch with standalone mixer functionality like the NI Z2 and we’re getting somewhere (and don’t forget the DIN MIDI out! ;) )

  18. I recently upgraded my Allen & Heath Xone:1Ds (which had jogs) to Xone:K2s (which don’t have jogs). I’ve had a chance to test the 4midiloop controller, which also doesn’t have jogs. These days I’m 100% convinced that jogwheels are more or less redundant – at least if one isn’t a turntablist. (disclaimer: highly subjective, from the perspective of MY workflow)

    If sync is used (yeah, blah blah, let’s not whip that dead horse again) the jogwheels are even less usefull, but manual beatmatching too is perfectly comfortable with buttons and rotary encoders. Well, maybe not the “scrub & release” method, but still.

    Another thing I find quite useless is the pitch *fader*. Rotary encoder makes much more sense and makes syncing and/or deck layering much more convinient by eliminating a situation where the physical fader and the software fader are in different position.

  19. us old crusty bastards will continue to use jogs or turntables the kiddies can have thier sync and quantize meanwhile ill be scratching and mixing videos some of which i edited myself and playing tunes i remixed or made myself with ableton but im keeping my turntables or jogs ta

  20. i took the jogwheels off of two djtech vtt 101(which are still working after all the crazy mods i’ve done to them, so much for the “get what you pay for” adage) i drilled a couple holes through the jogs for bolts. then i took a 7″ and 10″ record and covered each in conductive tape i got from adafruit, drilled holes in them, and attached them to the jogs. at first, I was just making larger jogs, but at some point both were lying there, and I realised that they were “interchangable” and I thought “why not have a controller that has inter-changable size jogs depending on the user and/or the situation.”
    I have learned from these experiments – in jogwheels lighter is better (i know this, because I actually have more than two records like this, and the thickness/weight of the vinyl is very noticeable in use)
    So if I were in product dev, which i suppose my reluctance to bamboozle my companions in this dj culture that I love necessarily precludes will never happen, I would make a touch senstive rotary-encoder knob. And then make varying sizes of jogs that would simply fit onto it. Problem solved …same controller, everybody pleased.

  21. Taking away jog wheels is like taking the keys out off a trumpet and using Autotune to play the notes for you.

    Welcome to the generation of “technology does everything for you”. Be on the look-out for the next feature, which includes auto-dress, auto-feed, auto-walk, and our paid expansion that let’s lose weight while you eat. YAY! lol

    1. So having no jogs means automated DJing? That’s not true at all. Without jogs, you’re still reading the crowd, picking the right music for that crowd, and mixing it in the right way. The process is different but the end result of rocking a crowd is the same.

      I prefer them because a hands-on style is what I like, but controllers without jog wheels are every bit of capable of rocking a crowd.

      1. Being that I come from the land of turntables. I’m just a tad bitter with how much easier it is to do most aspects of DJing now and you are correct that knowing what songs to play and when to play them is a skill set that can’t be automated yet. But if your library is organized to the tee with all cue’s properly placed, key sig’s correct, bpm’s, and notations for the kind of energy the track brings. Then selecting the tracks should be easy for most pro’s familiar with their library.

        Too each their own, I’m just bothered on how the learning curve and barrier to entry is becoming more non existent with every passing year. I believe in the idea of technology making us better not lazier. Not that I’m saying Controllerist are lazy =P

        1. It’s an argument that can be applied to any skill revolutionised by technology. It makes the basic functions easier, and enables all new ones. People often focus too much on how the old ways have changed and don’t bother looking at all the cool new stuff.

          The thing is that the old ways are still as cool and relevant. In the context of this article, you can’t scratch without some sort of wheel. And people do like the hands-on feel. I think I’ll always like cue my own tracks in than hit a hot cue or play button. But I still love all the crazy stuff that technology is bringing. They’re not mutually exclusive.

          1. There is at least one person who scratches on their iPad. I saw a kid (mid-20s) scratch, using the traditional X plane (left/right) but he also had assigned the Y direction (up/down) to some effects. He astounded people with real time effects (mostly flange and pitch) on his scratching, while his other hand deftly managed the cross fader. I don’t even think that’s possible on vinyl…without using your feet or getting help from a friend.

  22. If you use any digital component at all (computer, CDJ, etc.) then you shouldn’t have a strong opinion on the matter. The ONLY DJs I bow to are the ones who lug crates, TTs, and 2-CH analog mixers (without FX) to every gig. Anyone not in that category, I’m sorry, your opinion on the matter will not influence me and I would empower you to do whatever (and buy whatever) works for you. There are options for every style of DJ out there. If you scratch, get jogs. If you don’t, don’t. It really is that simple. The market dictates production, and since we still see jog wheels I’m guessing there’s still use for them.

      1. Neither you nor I have proof but I, like many economists, believe it to be mostly true for things not regulated by the government. It’s the very reason why turntables are still in production. There’s a market for them.

        Besides, that’s a strawman and wasn’t even the point of my comment.

  23. I never tried a jog wheel so am not sure if it is something I want/need. I would like to give it a go but never had the opportunity. I am not a luddite; I was just “somewhere else” when the digital revolution took over. Since “returning”, I bought Traktor DVS and an Allen & Heath K2 but think this was a digital step too far for an old vinyl junkie. I tried the K2 without the DVS but it felt strange. I suspect something with jog wheels might be a better balance but then again, I am well behind the curve on this stuff. I’d like to try some of those Pioneer CDJs but they are not cheap for someone who is not committed to the technology and doesn’t have a mate (or local dealer) with a pair.
    I might just buy one 2nd hand CDJ to sit between one of my turntables and mixer. At least if I’m not into it, I shouldn’t lose too much but for the time being, I need to be able to push and pull my groove.

      1. Why would he want DVS if he got real records and not gigging?
        Playing music from a laptop sucks, gives me heeadaches that’s why i never jumped on the bandwagon.
        Ppl seem spend a lot of money just cause they saw someone else using something they haven’t got. But i dont think he needs either DVS or CDJ. Its just a “want” thing because he feels left behind.

        1. he says he already bought Traktor DVS so if he has the tech he may aswell have access to cheaper music from download sites, i have tons of vinyl but i bought DVS for my home setup just so i could start mixing with modern tracks that cost a fraction of the price of records.

          1. to buy a traktor dvs system and a laptop is more expensive than buying a bunch of records..unless you want a million tracks that nobody cares about and you only play once just to have it

            most modern tracks are not worth buying anyway, we live in a fast food society now, here today gone tomorrow

            1. Your stance is fine if you just want to play older music. But we’ve already shown in a previous article that it’s impossible to play the full gamut of newly released tracks without going down the digital route. Doing marches forward as does new music. Vinyl means nothing to kids, and jog wheels are becoming relics of times past for a lot of people too.

              1. i dont really agree with that, there are plenty new records being released, enough to make me bankrupt if i wanted them

                also according to many articles ppl of young age seem to be into vinyl as well call them hipsters but its true that more records are being sold now than in 1993.

                nothing against digital, i just will never go that route,well only to record demos or tracks for on the road

              2. You had an article (at least 6 months ago) about cutting your own records. I suppose you *could* buy new (lossless) tracks and then cut records with them, but is it worth the time and money?

                  1. This would be cutting new analog records from digital files (no computer required at the gig), but yeah… for anyone who chooses to play things this way, I guess that’s a solution.

            2. i think if you look around there are plenty of good tracks about, I’m not sure many long term classics will be released because the golden Era of dance is long gone and i think the scene as a whole is out of ideas. but i look on Traxsource weekly and find good records to play and mix with. we just have to face facts that tracks like Masters at Work-Backfired or Strings of life probably won’t come around any more. doesn’t mean new stuff is poor.

            3. and i think you will find that paying £10 a record will soon add up to the cost of a good laptop and an SL2 sound card (or NI’s equivalent) and thats not even factoring in the fact most people have computers at home anyway

              1. i dont need tons of records, i buy about 2 new ones a month on average. i enjoy the things i bought in the past, if i bought like 10 mp3s a week on average then i wouldnt really listen to the music i bought a couple of years ago anymore because then i have a couple of thousand tracks wich 90% i prob never play anymore plus those couple of thousand mp3s wouldnt even be worth anything, with 1 click they can all be deleted and nobody would notice lol

                and yes they have a computer sure but i assume traktor/serato takes up a lot space so a seperate laptop is needed with a faster 2,4ghz processor

                    1. I believe both him and Hawtin now use one laptop for everything. Hawtin definitely does.

  24. i want a single, flexible platter, ideally motorized, but with greater open ended flexibility than, say, the numark v7. All these ‘deck’ based controllers miss the point. Give me a nice usb ‘mixer’ controller, with a soundcard (a 4 channel version of akais newly announced mixer would be great), and then a separate playback and effects controller, with a platter. Two platters is unnecessary, especially when it cant be repurposed to control a broader range of aspects.

      1. well…its a nice cdj. if i wanted something that would just playback audio, that would be it. but as far as i understand, its not a -controller-, right? it doesnt send out midi or anything?

  25. what i see, is that more and more people are stepping away from traktor with controllers, to cdj’s either as dvs or just usb.
    there is just something about djing by hand that has a feeling that dj’s either pro or hobbyists want. also that whole “live remixing” marketing trick that ni is pulling is overrated.
    native should capitalise and make a single deck traktor cdj style quality controller ( said this a million times earlier)..i myself also went to cdjs after years of traktor, and its just way more engaging to manipulate music by hand instead of having the time to use tons of efx and playing loop over loop..so jogs are neccesary.

    1. So what you are saying is that in your style of playing Traktor doesn’t work for you.. Because you like manipulating the music.. via jogs.. Damn, I remember when manipulating the music referred to vinyl and not CD jogs.. my how times change.

      I will give you that “live remixing” is a keyword gimmick.. But if you know how to use them without them turning into another way to annoy the crowd.. who cares.. There is a such a thing as too much of a good thing.. Everything in moderation..

      For my part I think jogs are a bit inorganic.. To me there is no comparison between cueing on vinyl and pressing a button.. But to each their own.

      1. i came from vinyl…then went to dvs..then controllers and now cdjs..and you are correct, in my style of playing i need that feeling to get my flow..but, other djs probably need this too, cause like i said many are going back to a more traditional style of djing with either cdjs..dvs and / or vinyl…in my opinion the only djs who really shine using traktor are speedy j and richie hawtin and maybe chris liebing..the rest of them? i think is so so, and id much rather hear them play more dynamic on turntables or cdjs..cause in theyre cases i tend to find there traktor sets a bit clinical sounding..as i also did with my own.
        so, in short : jogs or vinyl platters make my sets sound more dynamic cause i have to work for it..and in my opinion this dynamic just cant be achieved with clinical syncing. (not that sync is a bad thing)

    2. single deck traktor cdj style quality controller ! i agree something like x1 with jog and somekind of pitch ,because pitch with buttons suck when you wan`t to play back 2 back or simply start after someone who finished his set with vinyl 4 example , one of thge reason i`m back to cdjs and occasional timecode gigs.

  26. Why not have a poll?

    A) Divorce
    B) I love my wife but I get action on the side because she doesn’t do BJ
    C) She could get a little work done
    D) She’s Perfect

    LOL!

  27. I find that platters, not little jogs, are essential to the part where you *feel* the music.
    Platters allow me to actually manipulate and handle my tunes and samples. And that is a beautiful feeling. This part of DJing is being lost, and I think primarily it is because of the supposed “convenience” that recent technology that you can stick in your backpack or your pocket has brought along in recent years. IMO it has created lazy “DJs” that no longer feel its worth to pay for a piece of equipment with the tactile capability to let them feel music as if they were touching it (buy a 12″ recently?). They appear scared to carry a turntable and other more substantial gear into a gig. So they sacrifice usability, and in my case: FUN!

    The vibe you get from scrubbing a track in a 12″ platter vs. simply pushing a button, is just, HUGE. The resolution available is great and the ability for you to set your own style based on the way you move that platter (scratching) is a great way to make a name for yourself and add to the awesome tunes you play.

    Of course, a bunch of you are going to call me “dinosaur” and all, but this is what makes me enjoy DJing. And it probably won’t change. It is also what I am going to pass on to other generations of upcoming DJ’s.

    All in all, I feel that the lack of platters on new gear makes for a very detached and inhuman way of playing music to folks. It is also not attractive when it comes to stage presence…

    1. Dollars to donuts you haven’t tried using a touch strip.

      One of the things I dislike about some people who claim any amount of legitimacy in something, is the outright denial and anger toward anything or anyone that challenges how they do something… without even trying that new thing.

  28. I can scratch on jog wheels. I love scratching on jog wheels. My two favourite controllers for this style of mixing are the NI Kontrol S4 and the vestax Spin. I would like you to think about how stupid this article I didn’t bother to read is

        1. Buttons do all of those things too, and if you are spinning music that is generally 4 to the floor dance music that won’t drift you don’t need to feather a platter or anything.

      1. That’s the point, I can scratch I spin hip hop not dance music (4×4), if we’re having a discussion about why there’s no need for jogs, please mention what genre you prefer. The removal of jogs topic is usually activated by by (4×4) dj’s.

    1. Yes. We posted a story about it. And Cable is a DMC winner using a controller designed with scratching in. But again, not everyone scratches or needs jog wheels. A lot of people love the Novation Twitch and there’s not a jog wheel in sight.

      1. A lot of people still use proper turntables too. I want to be a DJ with proper sex appeal and you know I win that very easily by using vinyl and playing urban and hiphop and scratching and playing funk. The fact that you can scratch with jog wheels and then all the advances (which are amazing) with effects is dope. Pay for a z1 and the buttons one (x1?) And you could have saved half the money for an ns7 II!! I don’t want to be a DJ who just pits his hands in the air and I don’t want to be a controllerist you have to find balance and be innovative. House is something very good and it keeps getting better and its fun just have a mix and I would love to try having a mix on a Twitch. So you guys keep mentioning the x1 and the z1 but the akai serato equivelant comes with PHONO INPUTS this art isn’t going to die in a smoke of NI mappings but honestly this is just some random opinionated rant I am openingly hating on this article and the future of djing hashtag. Prove it. And its great there is this website and that your provoking discussion

      2. Only three things need to be fixed on the Twitch: output levelsl, FX control for Serato DJ, and the addition of 2 more decks. And since there are no jogs wasting space, you could add two more touchstrips and have TRUE simultaneous 4-deck control. Get on it Novation!

  29. Said it back then at the office and still say it one year later: You can have a strip club with just flat chested girls and you will surely find an audience for it, tho the majority of strip clubs will always have the other girls…
    If you want to go into a niche, go do so, but set your expectations accordingly…

  30. What about the implications of platterless-deejaying for a DJ who isn’t a turntablist, but also doesn’t play dance music? If you’re playing genres like soul, and even pop and R&B prior to the 90s, sync just isn’t gonna cut it, and you need to do a lot of nudging. I haven’t used a physical controller to try that, but I HAVE done iPad controllerism using TouchOSC. Pressing a button to nudge a track, despite the fact that it consistently moves it in precise increments, just didn’t seem to work as efficiently as manipulating a platter. My guess is that it’s the very IMPRECISION of my 1200s that allows for more flexibility and therefore a more efficient beatmatching process. If I’m missing some magic MIDI mapping setting for the nudge function, I’d love to hear it, but otherwise, I’m wary of no platters for non-dance DJs.

    1. Like I mention in the article, I did a wedding on 1210s and never touched the pitch and only used the platters for launching tracks. I could do as good a job on a Z1 + X1.

  31. this article is 100 percent correct.
    as long as one replaces the phrase ‘jog wheel’ with the word ‘laptop.’

    look in any major club, at any big festival.

  32. I played from about 1986 onwards, with turntables, rack-based CD players (denon/numark), and pioneer CDJ’s. Also have a reloop dual deck midi controller with jogs lying somewhere. Now i use Traktor and the X1 mk2 (the one with the touchstrip). It’s all good! When you’re a decent DJ you have your ears and your sense of rhythm, so you can use anything to cue, pitch and mix. I must say that i was surprised how much the touchstrip for pitch bending feels like speeding up or down a turntable. It has kind of the same movement and feeling. As i play a lot of disco and non-quantised music i need to pitch bend a lot, and still the touchstrip of the X1 mk2 is more than sufficient for me, and can replace jogwheels just fine. But for old times sake it’s sometimes nice to bring out the vinyl or CD’s and play with SL’s or CDJ’s. So it’s either that, for old-skool fun, or traktor with X1 mk2. Jogwheels are not necessary anymore imho when using a laptop with controller.

    1. Yet this bigotted article makes us seem a bit mad. For being DJs that have jog wheels. Z1 has been out not very long get get with the future (of Djing) and sacrifice your jog wheels. For no reason other than its trendy or something so paridoxical

      1. The article was written to express an opinion and generate a discussion. Bigoted is a bit strong. It’s cool that people are really getting into it and putting across their views, but please don’t describe the article in such terms.

        The irony is that while I fought the corner for jog wheels in the office debate that stimulated this piece, Dan himself runs Technics alongside his Traktor X1. So it really is worth reading the whole article Hal.

        So there’s not hate here — just posing the question and trying to gauge opinion.

        1. there’s a thin line between generating a discussion and being a troll. The reason why I’m hating this and #thefutureofDjing is because I am being trolled. I hope you realise there’s no hate in my heart thanks for your reply

      2. Nowhere in the article am I suggesting eliminating jogs from the DJ world. What I ask is why every controller has to have them, especially when they are tiny plastic things that are next to useless. I’m asking that manufacturers be brave and think outside the cliche.

        I love DJing on my 1210s. I probably split my time equally between them and X1s + sync. But beatmatching on teeny platters with a 60mm pitch slider is dreadful.

  33. I personally like jogwheels, but I like that we have options…so every DJ can make a setup that fits his/her needs.

    I’m so used to it all because I came up from vinyl and CDJ. Just a personal preference.

    1. Yeah, there will always be a market for jogs, my point has been that EVERY controller has them, and for lots of people, they just waste space. The issue I have is there are few options for all-in-ones with no jogs.

      1. Agreed. I think over time we’ll see more non-jogwheel options pop up as we see the old thinking of “platters” vanish with new generations.

        I still think the future is more in components. You buy pieces and put them together to make your ideal setup. Like the smaller Kontrol pieces, or the new Akai pieces for Serato, or even the Behringer CMD series.

        1. But components also means lots of cables. The X1/F1 setup also always requires a separate mixer. I would really like to see a 4 channel mixer and real 4 channel controller (without layers, as described above) combined. It should also allow external sources, much like Denon’s MC6000

      1. Yeah, while I like the X1 touch strips in place of jogs, I’m not sure how I feel about touch faders – cutting and chopping in and out with faders needs a certain wrist action that I really don’t think you can do with touch strips.

        1. Tried touch surface. Sucked for the reasons you said. Can’t use knobs for volume either. Need faders to do quick chops.
          I also don’t like paginated knobs and faders. Just too confusing when you are standing there stressed out if things does more than one thing. Touch strips for moving around in the song though, that is awesome.

      2. To me there is NOTHING like an input device with physical parts to it. IMO this is the reason digital Djing became what it is. Why not get a touch screen laptop and stick with that? You now have your touchstrips and all that right on the screen. I know that is overkill and I am just kidding but I just will never get over the physical feel of the platter/faders/knobs. It gives me a better connection with the music.

  34. I honestly can’t image DJing without jog wheels. I don’t scratch much, but I rely on jog wheels for cuing tracks, and I’d be lost without them.

    It would seem that you can get by without them, but I can’t understand how.

    1. If you don’t scratch then it’s just habit. Give it a try, I went from SSL to the Twitch and there was no adjustment period. I have used my Twitch and Faderfox at gigs and have no problems. Without scratching a jog is just an endless encoder. You don’t need it.

      1. Natural? Yes I would agree. No real learning curve. I don’t think touchstrips replace jog wheels though. Not yet at least. Not on my X1 MK2 but I have never tried the Twitch personally.

  35. I pre-ordered the Twitch when it was announced because I understood this 3 years ago. Should I need to scratch, I’d just get a turntable with time code (or something similar) and add it to my set-up. There’s really no reason to just pick one controller and stick to it (I’ve got 3 hooked up to my computer and they all serve different purposes).

    I agree the Twitch is due for an update, but Novation hasn’t even hinted that they’re going to do anything of the sort.

      1. Novation already uses an X-Y pad on their Remote SL keyboards, so it stands to reason they would be thinking about how best to integrate them. Many people suggest that Novation use Full-color LEDs (instead of the bi-color ones they use now) for anything using LEDs, but I think using old iPhone 1 touch interfaces would be even better than that. What we want might be too expensive for them to mass-produce.

    1. I just love how you can jump to any part of the song with one press on the twitch. With jogs you need to spin really fast if you want to jump to the middle of the song.

      1. Never heard of a strip search or a needle search strip? I can tell you I have three controllers and CDJ’s and NOT ONE of them do I need to spin ANYTHING really fast to jump ANYWHERE.

      1. have you ever tried the x1 for traktor? there is a knob that can perfectly jump to sections and bars to a song for cueing without the use of jog wheels. thats why some djs like felix da housecat uses it without the need for jogs. i dont think many djs are aware of this.

        1. Why does that sound horrible to me? ” there is a knob that can perfectly jump to sections and bars to a song for cueing” is someone supposed to say “good job” after a comment like that? I have the X1 and I do like it but I like the “on the fly” parts to be me and only me. I get set preparation and all that and am all for all the tolls in the world to ease that part but I just feel like during you set it should be you and no 4/4 timings keeping everything together.

  36. I love jog wheels, but recently I’ve been using a setup with NI X1 mk2, F1 and Z2. I use this rig now for about 60% of my gigs. It works wonderfully. I do have a top paying client this weekend and will break out the big guns, S4 mk2 and F1. Makes for a better presentation to those paying good money. It’s all about what works for you.

    1. Hah! I have friends who digital DJ, but bring turntables to look like they’re doing something with them. I saw a guy come up to the DJ booth and congratulate my buddy (Don) for a great set and for keeping it real. We had a hard time keeping a straight face.

      1. Presentation plays a huge part in this industry is all that proves. It also proves that the customers tend to agree that things are getting a little ridiculous with DJing. I DO NOT agree with the “as long as the job gets done” mentality. I like to have my integrity & honor at the end of the day but that is just me. I DO however believe in the right tool for the job though so don’t take this as knocking anyone who uses controllers etc.

        1. The audience basically demanded that he have turntables there, not that he used them. There’s no loss of integrity there, especially when the crowd went from flaming Don for not using records before, to saying he’s great now. I call that “lack of integrity on the part of the audience.”

  37. I cut my teeth mixing with 2 technics and a mixer, and am now using traktor and a pair of kontrol X1 Mk2s. I don’t care what the purists say, I’m having just as much fun with buttons and touchstrips as I was with vinyl. They’re all just tools, and the important thing is what comes out of the speakers.

    It’s the same with photography – film vs digital, SLR vis compact, photoshop or no photoshop. None of it matters if the photo is good.

  38. I will never get used to the job wheels. They do not compare to TT. I bought the controller for spacing, size, and set up time. The amount of digital space to scratch on a job wheel is laughable. But if I practice then over time I will be a pro but right now. Forgtttaa bouttt it.

  39. dj programs these days make it so easy for anyone to preset hot cues and sync any tracks before you dj. tons of effects available to create a doubling effect to imitate 2 turntables. all you have to do is press a button and its cues the song perfectly matched. jog wheels are for people “trying” to keep scratching and traditional mixing alive the midi electronic way. the ones who are too lazy too carry 2 turntables to a gig. personally i like the original jog wheels…good old fashion 27.5 lb technics that you can scratch and mix static skipping breaks on 12″ wax.

  40. What would you rather see. An update to the twitch controller or an update to the Kontrol S4? I know secretly you want an update to the S4 and you can’t wait for Native instruments to make a big announcement because you guys love traktor so much!!!!!

    1. I want to see the Twitch update, the S4 mk2 was hardly an update at all. A lot of people think you can’t scratch with a touch strip, but that’s simply not true. You can adjust the level of sensitivity and range to meet almost anyone’s needs… Moving left and right on a Twitch feels like touching vinyl, but if you place your fingers any distance apart and alternate pressure you can get some interesting baby scratching or if you roll your fingertips, you can get a stutter scratch… And then of course, you can always pinch or expand a loop directly with the touch strips… something you can’t do (without a modifier) with a jog wheel.

      Can we be done with this argument already and just let people who want to use what they want to use?

  41. I use the Jog wheels to control chained Fx in Traktor along with some very amateur “scratching”. In my opinion, yes, the Jog wheels are just as important to me as having a play button. I can understand where someone who plays strictly EDM doesn’t need a jog wheel but taking away the Jog just limits the potential to try something different. & the same goes for those only spinning one genre of music.

  42. I come from the vinyl days and have transitioned through the evolution of DJing to the Midi technologies and still recognize the creative value of the jog wheel and all other innovations of the current DJ tools.

  43. I play long sets (7 hours) everynight with Traktor . Some songs have bad grid , some songs have bpm changes , some times i have a song in my second computer (I use a DDJ SZ) so , I NEED my jogs for bending . I love BIG jogs . I also have NI X1 mk2 but …come on !! it’s too small for me .

        1. You use your SZ in a nightclub environment? I have the SZ & SX but I could never bring myself to use them in a club. IF they didn’t have the gear already i always use my SRT,SP1 & CDJ setup.

  44. I can’t speak for anyone else but most def essential to me, if U can’t scratch? U might wanna pick up on that craft even if U just do simple echo fade scratches with crazy fx enabled on the track ur scratching? great for playing EDM creating swooping white noise build up fx. in my opinion a “DISC” jockey with out Disc’s or jogs doesn’t make any sense. Maybe they should even come up with a new name for the craft if U take out the jogs… I dunno PBJ? push button Jockey?

      1. I think we still do call them dj’s right? I mean we still have dj contests and that kinda stuff? the thing is that.. comming from a turntablist background it sometimes hurts to see people just pressing play and sync killing a craft, and b4 anyone jumps up in rage, I’m not saying that if ur not a turntablist ur not a real dj or that using sync is a bad thing it’s just how You use it? elevate the art form of dj’ing in any way (like turntablist did with scratching and juggling) don’t kill it! if You are using ableton live and a controller and are able to do semi live productions on stage in a matter that it still keeps the crowd movin? and maybe show sum piano and 10 finger drumming skills? hey U are more of a dj to me then, then a guy who just downloaded this months top40 drops it on a USB and just plays al the tracks that in my opinion is a jukebox. as far as gear concerns? maybe ur right maybe ur wrong… I dunno, but what I do know? I’d rather see somebody murder an MPC live on stage, like for example “Arab Music” then a guy who just happened to produce a song on his macbook, all done with using the pencil tool to draw in the notes or by sampling the midi notes from an existing song, don’t get me wrong some of that stuff is just really good kick ass music, but it is a different talent and a different skill set, I mean ofcourse someone who really creates kick ass music has a great talent it’s just not called Dj’ing its called producing.

  45. I am DJing Industrial music. People would KILL me if I scratched. It’s just not part of that music. I mash up loops and beats a lot and layer though. Right now I have the Novation Twitch. I have had a lot other controllers but this is the best so far. You cant’t beat the size/features on it. And it fits in a normal backpack without breaking your back.

  46. I tried not to use them this weekend (as an experiment) but due to a very unexpected and unfortunate issue with the laptop I couldn’t load any of my prepped work, so my grids were off, no cue points and deep file structures …. i NEEDED the jogs this weekend, I could not have finished the set without them. Not only did I have nudge tracks in, I had to scan quickly through files to find the cue / loop points again, I also used them for quick file management. So I take back my earlier statement of I don’t care if my next controller doesn’t have them …. I DO CARE, they are needed !

  47. we use jogs for more than scratch !! come on guys ! – To Bend , to find the correct point to set a cue , to backspin (ok , not always ) – Jogs are needed . You can pitch bend with a NI X1 Mk2 , but …. it will never be the same . This strip is small !! . I need CONTROL .

  48. I play techno, I don’t scratch, and I like jog wheels. I use Serato on decks/cdjs live, but at home I have Serato and a controller. I do not beatgrid, but use simple sync (synced by BPM only) at home. The jog wheels still are necessary for pitch bends as well as hot dropping tunes into a mix. I don’t use the cue button, I drop just like I would on decks.

    If I had a controller with a better pitch control range, I would DJ without any sync at all, not because I feel like it’s cheating, but just because I enjoy doing it that way.

    I have used Ableton to DJ, and I have used just button cue type systems. I do not prefer them.

  49. Honestly I don’t see this as outside the box. I see it as outside the realm of Djing. I’m staring at a picture of the Kontrol setup RIGHT above my post here and I am getting ugly flashbacks of the newie “DJ’s” of about 2-3 yrs ago. I only bring up that long ago as they have since stopped DJing as It was never really DJing to begin with. Using the X1 with Traktor is cool no doubt but I see that as as compromise. AS IF the only thing I used a platter for was scratching. I DON NOT SCRATCH!! so how could this be true? Forget the SYNC argument NONE OF this would be possible without it. I don’t see that as DJing. You have big name DJ’s claiming they do more than button press, you have all of the music community laughing at them. WHAT may I ask could ANYONE with a Kontrol only (X1, Z1 F1 etc) setup be doing besides button pressing. There is nothing else to it wit the exception of volume faders, A crossfader & some knobs. You have no real time control over the manipulation of the music, ONLY the next beat or snapping to a quantized position defined by some algorithm. Where is the human element? Even a DJ messing up has more personality than the mathematical equation you get from a modular Kontrol-like setup.

    When you can hear/see a set and in real time can literally duplicate exactly what you are seeing on the fly there is a problem.

    Just NOT my cup of tea and not for nothing I don’t see the industry heading in this direction. As a matter of fact with the lack of anything innovative coming from the N.I. cam were are seeing more & more SDJ switchovers than anything else and rightly so. I mean when the best controller (IMO) Traktor has going for them is a native SDJ controller (The DDJ series) there is a slight problem. I don’t see them recovering from this either as Serato is only widening the gap. Just look at the last month of releases and (to bring this back to subject) the software people decide to use GREATLY affects the hardware they decide to use. The Akai AMX/AFX is the next setup to take the Jogless plunge and while I myself will be picking this setup up (unlike the Twitch and I AM known for getting just about all the gear) this will be for my personal sets, preparing, practicing etc…………………………… for fun to put it bluntly JUST like the X1 & was for me. The X1/F1 were two of my favorite devices to date BUT they always kept the SUB prefix in my setups as they NEVER acted as primary.

    1. I think you are being extremely short sighted.

      The last major Traktor update (Traktor Pro 2.5) brought the remix decks over 2 years ago, with the full release of Traktor 2 having come out . More than likely we are going to see a new release of Traktor in the next 6 to 8 months. Serato DJ has JUST reached parity with Traktor in the last few months, and is now surpassing it. If you think that NI have just been sitting on their thumbs watching the world go by I can assure you that you are surely mistaken.

      And as far as the “human” element of DJing, if I am using two X1MK2s and a mixer, how do I not have real time control over music? Is it because I can’t feather a platter, cause that’s really the only thing I’ve lost other than scratching. Seeking or scrubbing can’t really count because that’s just an absurd thing to miss.

      I’m confused why a DJ making mistakes gives them more personality. I thought our personality was supposed to show through our song selection and mixing.

      1. A DJ making mistakes does not give them the personality it is the human element that does which happens to allow for said mistakes. I don’t go to listen to a DJ for his mistakes but I do go for the personality. The DJ’s with the best personality IMO are not relying on SYNC (not saying using SYNC makes you less of a DJ BTW) 100% of the time and their peak moments are done without the use of such features. As a fan I want to look at a performer and say “WOW”. As a DJ I DON’T want to look at a performer and say………… “Wait what was that button combination again so I can do exactly what you just did?”

        With proper SETTINGS and combinations you can duplicate such a set due to timing and algorithms. With a platter introduced you may get close but duplicating is pretty much out the window. Losing the platter you lose the 100% control over the song being played
        bottom line. It’s just the way it is. You come close and an impressive
        close at that but it will never be 100%. The Twitch was even closer and MAYBE one day there will be the hardware to change it all but I am going off what we have seen to date.

        The “I though our jobs are to choose the right music to connect with the audience” is PART of the job BUT a music enthusiast with an iPod could do a great job at that so there must be MUCH more added in order to be at your fullest potential.

        Lastly I hate to break it to you but the hardware end of Traktor will NEVER be at what Serato has due to competing against themselves.. Again the best hardware to use with Traktor is arguably native Serato gear and that says a lot. Is Traktor done completely……………… probably not. I just don’t see them coming back with anything substantial enough to even the score. I use Traktor, Rekordbox AND Serato so I do welcome it if I am wrong just as I welcomed Rekordbox 3.0 recently.

        Serato has always (IMO) had the library management nailed (which to me has always been #1) and they are just now showing their full potential as an industry standard application. With the recent additions combined with the features we already know are in the works (StickerSYNC, Brige, etc.) things look pretty promising. Don’t get me wrong I still feel Traktor is a solid DJ software as well. I just feel if their priorities changed they would get out of their own way to progress.

        I don’t claim to know it all and I could be wrong about all of this.

        1. Thanks for engaging this conversation without resorting to ad hominem and insults. Usually, in my experience, my response up there is the end of the discussion. It’s good to disagree politely. :)

          Moving on, I think a lot of this comes down to what we want out of a DJ. As a club goer, I really don’t care what a DJ does in the booth, I only care about the end result. The sole exception to that is I want them to be doing something live and not just pressing play on an ipod/cdj/whatever and having a completed mix play. Going to those arena performances, or festivals or whatever might be different, but the music I listen to doesn’t have that, so I never really got it.

          My point, in the end, is the only real job a DJ has is playing music for people. Whether they are spinning a wedding, a lounge, a club, on the radio, or at a festival, that is their prime directive whether they are on a laptop, turntables or two ipods. I don’t see that as a part of their job, but as the only reason for our existence.

          Everything else, every other phase of what we do, is merely for the enjoyment of other DJs. The crowd doesn’t care. The extent of their care ends at songs that are played at how they are put together. Beyond that no crowd I have ever seen gives a shit what the DJ is using except other DJs.

          And as far as Serato/Traktor goes, I still stand by my initial argument. Serato has only reached feature parity with Traktor in the last year. Itch and SSL were highly underpowered, with the exception of the browser which, I will gladly admit, is still vastly superior to Traktor. Traktor, though, hasn’t had a full version update in around 3 years, maybe more (I can’t find the Traktor Pro 2 release date, but I’m pretty sure it was 2010, maybe 2011), whereas Serato has released Itch AND Serato DJ in that time and completely changed their business model.

          Will the next version of Traktor blow us all out of the water? I don’t know. But I am almost 100% positive that whatever they do will shake the game up, as it always has. And, just a note, you are the first person I have heard mention that the Bridge works. ;)

          1. LOL No No the Bridge does NOT work but we got confirmation that a version of Bridge IS IN the works as in will be added in upcoming update. 1.7 is in beta now and it is adding Serato FLIP as well as DVS expansion pack so no hope for Brigde this release but hopefully 1.8.

            Again I am rooting for Traktor too don’t take my comments the wrong way. I am just taking a huge shot in the dark on Serato is all. With the revenue they are gaining from hardware partnerships and licenses I am wondering if they may get to be too big for their own good. Who knows and time will tell. As it is I wouldn’t mind a figure being released of what percent of controllers sold are in fact native Serato controllers…………………………… not that it means much of anything I am just curious.

            BTW I can relate to what you say about the actual position & role of a DJ. I guess the common mistake is that the people arguing of what is to be expected of a performing DJ are generally always DJ’s as the “common folk” (LOL btw) don’t really care.

            1. Well, that wouldn’t be a terribly interesting discussion anymore. The only controllers that aren’t native to Serato at this point are NI controllers, effectively. There are SOME other options, but not very many.

              I can’t see them getting too big for their own good. Most of their work is getting poured right back into their app, and some really great tools. I mean, I wish they did a BUNCH of stuff differently, but I can’t fault them for their overall product. Flips, as an example, are far more interesting to me than any re-release of the Bridge, especially since it doesn’t require me to rely on updates from another software developer.

              I think DJs just like talking shit on other DJs. It’s a moment of “Crap, I can do this SO much better. He should be doing (x), (y), and (z), cause that’s what I do and it’d be a better show” when in reality they most likely don’t do any of that stuff, but just like sounding superior. ;)

              1. I actually am surprised at how many controllers are attempted only to mos often fail. It seems you must be associated with a “big brother” software. The Rekordbox controllers, Djay, Cross and standalones just don’t seem to produce when stacked up against the Serato & Traktor controllers. Almost as if they were never there. I mean sure the iOS users purchase their consumer controllers for their iOS devices on an almost novelty level but not much more going on there it seems.

                As far as Serato getting to big for their own good……………….. I have a special appreciation for Serato’s support. They (at the moment) have a hands on with just about everything they do and they seem VERY “connected” with their target DJ’s. I have heard how it is at VDJ, I have seen how it is a N.I. (Not the worst just sayin’) and then I have experienced Pioneer’s version of a forum/support site. I have purchased a ton of Pioneer gear and TBH I have a new found hate for their support system and I was the LAST person I thought would ever feel this way. I genuinely LOVE their gear……………. I DO (I literally paid for my PLX-1000’s in full not 24 hrs. ago) I just feel they have gotten extremely DISconnected from their audience. They have a sense of “what else are they going to buy” and let their big name DJ’s using their gear do the talking for them. THIS is the fear I have. IMO Competition is GOOD and THIS is why I am all hopes for Traktor because IMO their is nothing else close in caliber to SDJ. Also I am not sure if you noticed but I try not to say who IS better but I am pretty quick to recognize who is DOING better. Serato has done a great job to maintain headlines for good reasons. IMO this is huge for any DJ software especially now while the DJ boom is still in full effect.

                I do have to disagree on one of your points (forgive me LOL) where you call Serato FLIP more interesting than the Bridge. As an opinion it can’t be wrong I understand BUT this seems to me you either never fully got into the bridge or you are overestimating FLIP. FLIP at its current stage is missing key elements IMO that could make or break its success. NOW in its infancy it deserves some slack and I am more than willing to give it. The part I feel that is missing is you can NOT record scratches, fader movements, FX etc. PLEASE don’t take this as complaining. REMEMBER also I love SDJ. It’s my goombah! I just see the bridge as more innovative & useful is all. I can relate to your point with the dependance on Ableton though. I guess you are not actually wrong this is just MY opinion on the FLIP side (see what I did there LOL).

                As far as your last comment I will just say YES. 100% lmao and it will be this way for a while if not forever.

                1. It’s really shocking, right? The controllers that get made that are not geared for Traktor or Serato pretty much disappear. And over the last few years there are less and less controllers dedicated to Traktor, now to the point where only NI makes them. The biggest tell was NAMM over the last two years where almost no booths have Traktor up and running. Almost everywhere had Serato. That being said, I did notice performers using Traktor, so that’s something.

                  I understand your point comparing the Bridge to Flips. I think that the Bridge is a fantastic idea, amazing really. But its delivery did not live up to expectations. Flips have a long way to go, and I have no doubt they will grow to include those features you are discussing. I’ve always been curious as to why Serato is writing that data to the tag of the track and not in a proprietary database or something, where more data can be stored, and linked to the track in question.

                  Time will tell, in the end. Serato are owning the media space right now because they have a new release, and a new business model. Don’t be surprised if Traktor goes in that same direction. :)

                  1. Yeah I think Traktor still has the edge for a professional (I’m talking PROfessional) DJ in most genre’s excluding scratching. While Traktor Scratch is spot on I am just not sure if the Pro Scratch DJ’s are looking for all of “that”. In many discussions similar to ours we would cue the “Jazzy Jeff used Traktor” etc etc back & forth but luckily I feel I am talking to someone who has a healthy dose of maturity and class where it is unnecessary LOL. There are always exceptions to the rule and none of this is gospel anyways.
                    Sure is a breath of fresh air to converse with someone who keeps things civil even if we don’t 100% agree on everything. What a boring world it would be if we did anyways.

                    My hopes is that Serato does more with the database based system but keeps the individual file tagging as well. Best of both worlds. I also have a feeling Damien and his Rekord Buddy will bring everything together as even the Serato team has high hopes in that direction. This would bridge the gap between Traktor, Rekordbox & Serato creating an opportunity for users to experience other areas. It is possible now (as you probably already know) using N.I’s SSL database importer for Serato>Traktor then using Rekord Buddy to move from Traktor>Rekordbox creating a 100% SYNCed library for the three apps beat grids, playlists, cue points and all. THIS will be drastically facilitated by Rekord Buddy in the near future.

                    As far as your last point you could not be more right. It also seems you are in the position I am as well where either way we win and competition in any way can generally never be a bad thing. Here is one NON debatable fact I AM FREAKIN’ EXCITED!! LOL

                    1. See, the whole “scratch DJs don’t need ALL THAT” argument is weird to me. Granted, the UI for Serato used to be a whole lot more elegant, but I find it to be just as chaotic now as Traktor’s. I’d think Scratch DJs would want to use the best tool for the job, regardless of bells and whistles, and everything I hear leads me to believe Traktor has the best time code response. Granted, I’m only hearing that, I’m not assuming it’s true.

                      I can’t wait for Rekord Buddy. If it does all the things I hope it does I am going to be so psyched. My biggest frustration is for that whole system you described to work you have to start with Serato. I started in Traktor. Getting to Rekordbox is easy, but getting to Serato is impossible. And then there’s the variable of flex grids in Serato which just changes everything.

                      I’m excited too, dude.

                    2. To be honest I don’t thing SDJ is catering to the masses of Scratch DJ’s either. SSL seems to be the tool of choice. Even with my passion for SDJ (and being at the front lines of all the new features of it) I STILL bust out SSL whenever I go with the TT’s. I have also heard that Traktor has the superior time code performance as well which is one of the largest factors in my assumption that it is the layout & simplicity of SSL that attracts (or retains) scratch DJ’s. Again I myself am going off what I see/hear from various forums, websites and local (NY & FL) scenes as well.

                    3. I think that was always the draw of SSL. The interface was SO clean and basic, and if all you wanted to see was two tracks and use the browser you could. That was fantastic.

                      SDJ is trying to capitalize on that good will, but I think the interface just got super cluttered super quick. Granted, I’m just so used to Traktor at this point that I don’t even really notice how cluttered it is anymore.

    2. Yeah i agree that without a jog wheel you have much less real control over the music and are forced to rely more on a computer’s sync equations ,even today post back to the future 2 theres still is no software that can do this better than your own human ear

      1. the computer gets it right most of the time, but you should be able to tell that the song is off beat, and traktor makes it somewhat easy to remap the beatgrid to be on beat. generally, if it set it’s beat anchor on any true 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 of the beat, then you just tap the tempo and it’ll readjust the beatgrid’s phase and it’s 1234 count to yours. ever so often there is a song that it doesn’t get the tempo or the “1st” beat right, so then you just stop the deck on any beat, and then add the grid marker on that beat, then play > tap tempo, and it autoadjusts based on your tapping.

        if you know your controller and your software well enough, you could probably do that in 20 seconds. 30 seconds max.

        I have big folder of absolutely correct songs that I spent hours managing. so if I am doing on-the-fly mixing, if I run out of time, there are always songs I can rely on to be perfectly on beat.

        I really think that traktor, serato, and all the others should start using machine learning to learn through sampling millions of songs, how to properly count, and properly find the beat, and properly adjust a beat grid.

  50. I personally like jogwheels, I wouldn’t feel comfortable setting cue points, tweaking pitch and doing spinbacks any other way. Regarding scratching, jogwheels are totally impractical to do that with any finesse, even the relatively large ones on CDJs for instance.

  51. I dont understand the question at all, if jogweels are still needed, or not. ;-)
    I think it depends completely of the style a DJ works. For me, I play 100% complex Goa Trance (also Oldschool), i couldn’t mix well enough since the bpm and grids of the software lacks of accuracy. I often have to adjust manually by pitchbending with the weels. So i decided to kick this feature off and use ears and fingers as usual.
    Anything else would lead to a huge efford in pre-adjusting any track to calculate bpm and grid by hand to fit the mix.

    On the other hand, i dont need much aditional stuff like FX or remix samples. My music is full of this so i can just play it as is and concentrate in flow and story. :-)

    Beatmatching is fun and without this i could even prerecord my sets :-P

  52. I think jog wheels are essential on a controllers meant to be a standalone controllers. However, I think there is a decent market for DVS/HID users who would make use of a compact four channel controller as a DVS mixer/interface. Basically adding four channels to the Twitch design or shrinking a DDJ SZ / SX2 by removing the jog wheel and replacing it with a more compact pitch bending / nudge device (even buttons might be OK) as these users are going to rely on their timecode playback to make manual adjustments.

    The DJM-900 series are solid and the Rane 62/64/68 series come close, but they simply lack MIDI assignment controls. I’m saying this a Rane 62 user with a DDJSP1 and NI X1 MK2s which I have mapped in both Traktor and Serato – this setup is just too unwieldy and large for anything but a home studio or a demo style performance.

  53. If what you really want is to be able to have a controller with 4 decks but you feel jog wheels are too big then you can just design a controller with smaller jog wheels like the ones on 19″ inch cd players That should fit with no problem , for me a jog wheel is better than a touch strip because when you get to the end of that strip you have to let go and go back to the beginning letting go means you cant find your beat unless you pause your deck A wheel you can continuosly move without letting go so it is more convenient and you can simply move a jog wheel faster or slower for precision while you cant fine tune on a touch strip for me a touch strip is only good for fast forwarding quickly across a whole track, removing the jog wheel would lead you to relying too much on your computer screen and in that case it defeats the point of even having a controller, it seems like alot of people here really dislike the traditional idea of dj’ing for those people i would say just get an external mixer or program shortcut keys on your computer keyboard, stop hating yourself and using controllers you dont like just come out of the closet and admit to yourself you are a computer dj and quit pretending on controllers that mimic the traditional equipment you dont like

  54. Looking at that novation twitch picture , is that a rotary pitch? Thats an innovation i welcome i think is cool because it could make for more precision and fine tuning and no need to move around and catch up when you change the pitch on your software as is the problem with pitch sliders , but i dont see any pitch bend on this it would need + – buttons for pitch bending otherwise you are stuck relying on sync otherwise whats the point of changing pitch, the layout is not very good those hot cue buttons should be above and the cue and play button should be below next to the crossfader because thats more important Also headphone cue select buttons should be below next to the faders not the fx buttons because headphone cue select is more important

  55. Jog wheels are essential for djing DnB and other non 4×4 beats. I’d even like to see a traktor jog wheel controller like the X1. Get two of those and plug them into my Allen and Heath. 2 channels with proper jog wheels on a good mixer.

  56. “Another advantage would be to get rid of deck “layers”. Stuffing four
    channels into a controller with just two jog wheels and then adding a
    button to switch layers is just a massive fudge, and brings about a
    whole host of issues, not least with the pitch slider and any
    deck-specific settings.” I disagree with this statement. I’ve spent about 3 months doing a deep dive on traktor mapping, figuring out Denons LED command structure, and have mapped two ancient Denon SC3700 decks to act as pure midi controllers. Each physical deck controls 2 traktor decks with the touch of a button, light color change on the Denon indicates which traktor deck you are controlling, and all functionality works. I will admit it hasn’t been easy but its been fun problem solving!

    Going to your jog wheels post though, I spent 20+ years as a vinyl DJ and purchased the SC3700s because I wanted to take advantage of digital DJing using the old school spinning platter – and in the year I’ve owned them, I’ve turned 100% around and have mapped them as pure midi controls with a dead platter in the middle. If I had to go back and do it again, I’d probably just buy two Allen & Heath Xone K2s. For those interested, heres a view of the work in progress https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ekNfsZX-0bE/WNM_dD6xOMI/AAAAAAAAD9A/KL_pug7SDp4GoNgRbylCCZfHuvG9v7YCQCLcB/s1600/sc3700_mapping_madden_wachsenhoff_v1.jpg

  57. I am a wedding DJ and I very much want a 4 channel controller that does not have jog wheels, but still has pitch bend. Anyone know where I should be looking?

  58. Always, always, always. I use them to quickly line up a cue point and to push or pull songs along in the mix. What I really need is a simple single-deck jog wheel to pair with my soundcard-enabled mixer but nobody makes them anymore and I’m not about to spend $700 and up for a media player.