Yesterday will go down as quite a momentous day in the history of DJ turntables. After an eight year absence, legendary and iconic brand Technics brought forth their iterative take on what their audience wants in the shape of the SL-1210 MK7 (for that is its name in my hood), and immediately highlighted just how much the turntable market had changed in that time.
And on the same day (journalistically speaking), considerably lesser known German DJ manufacturer Reloop updated their revolutionary RP-8000 to a natural evolutionary MK2 status. The DJ world gasped, and the differences in products, prices, and tribes started to become quite apparent.
Indeed, Turntable Tuesday became the day that the polarising effects of technology, brands, and ultimately people were amplified with great clarity.
ON PAPER
If I were to do an SL-1200 MK7 vs RP-8000 MK2 comparison based on published features and numbers alone, the 1200 would come up a poor second, especially when you factor in the confirmed UK price of £899 — that’s almost 60% more than the Reloop.
Oooh the gasps of dismay and subsequent keyboard hammering from yeah-butting Technics fans is palpable. How dare I say that a crappy Chinese superOEM is better than a decades-deep iconic Japanese brand. But do you really want me to make a marketing friendly chart that shows a column of green ticks under the 8000 MK2, and a disturbing number of red crosses against the SL-1210 MK7 in comparison? These are facts, backed up by numbers and words.
But that doesn’t make one better than the other, nor did I say that it did. Read this article for further explanation of the folly of “better”.
Instead, we need to think about why £899 is acceptable to some, and the lack of 50% pitch makes the MK7 a complete non-starter. So you have to look at the tribes supporting the products to understand that buying tech is often so much more than numbers and prices.
IT’S ABOUT THE PEOPLE
One thing that is becoming increasingly apparent with my advancing years is just how much human nature plays in seemingly arbitrary fact-based decisions. I read a good example many years ago about someone who so desperately wanted to buy a then-sexy Volvo 480 (it has not stood the test of time). At launch, it was one of the sexiest cars on the road, but the writer decided that a more informed decision needed to be made. So a list of potential models with features carefully measured was made. And from this, a short list of test drives was undertaken, leading the writer make the totally expected decision of buying the 480, because that’s what his heart wanted. Screw his brain and its stupid facts.
I’m just as guilty. Unless something turns up in the meantime, I’ll be throwing money in the direction of Sony for an A7R III* camera. There are arguably better cameras on the market with higher this and that, but I want the Sony. Specs be damned — I know what I want and my heart is set. Sorry Drew.
* What I really want is a Hasselblad. Maybe in a few years.
These decisions are driven by all kinds of factors. And it’s here where we find the key differences between potential Technics and Reloop buyers.
SAFE
The main overwhelming reason for buying Technics is established quality that permeates the product and the brand. From the feel-good factor of the logo, to the bullet proof longevity, buying a 1200 means that you feel safe. Your needs are not complex or boundary pushing — it plays vinyl dependably each and every time for decades in a row.
A 1200 largely keeps its value, and in reality is a timeless heirloom. People will always want to play vinyl, and a 1200 will always deliver on that promise. It plays to established strengths and appeals to a particular type of person, and that person takes comfort in brands that they trust. It is a badge of honour that garners the nods of fellow Technics owners.
Thus a Technics 1200 is a safe and dependable purchase on a number of levels. It is the IBM of the DJ world. But safe is also…
RISKY
The RP-8000 MK2 appeals to an entirely different demographic. To them, a 1200 is a woefully underspecced box deliberately trapped in the past and trading on heritage in the absence of features. Presented alongside the RP-8000 MK2 is the promise of excitement — of the ability to do so much more than just mixing tracks within a ridiculously limited 8% range. And you have to pay how much for it?
Indeed, the absence of ultra pitch was the first thing being thrown around at first sight of the MK7. And that was before the 8000 MK2 was even out there in their hearts and minds. 50% pitch, topped off with all those buttons and MIDI amongst others just emphasised the yawning gap between old and new turntables.
This demographic is not swayed by the persuasive point of quality and longevity. Indeed, these DJs are positively hoping that the RP-8000 MK2 is replaced in 3 years with yet another slice of nextlevelness. It is their expectation that £500+ on a turntable over a particular period of time is worth every penny for all the boundary pushing fun they’ll be able to get out of it.
Alternatively it could just fulfil a need to be an early adopter of the latest stuff. This demographic loves the thrill of the new — the game of working around issues, knowing that adaptation and change is good. The challenge that comes with progress is to them well worth it.
For them, it’s the features that count. That could be any logo on there. I’ve barely heard a noise about Reloop as the brand — the chatter has only been about the features being delivered on the RP-8000 MK2 and partnering Elite mixer. I imagine that this is because Reloop’s brand ID doesn’t instil the tribal movement that Technics does. Nobody is wearing a Reloop t-shirt as a badge of honour. Not yet anyway — yesterday may see that slowly change.
APPLES AND ORANGES — RELOOPS AND TECHNICS
Comparisons between brand new turntables, especially ones so visibly similar are natural. But the on-paper approach alone is flawed without looking at the customers. Both are outstanding turntables in their own ways, but equally useless to their opposing demographic.
Thus online rucks between opposing sides are doomed to be a pointless circular war of full caps words where nobody wins. If I positively need 50% pitch, why are you arguing with me that the 1200 is better? Equally if I require the established quality and brand fulfilment that the iconic Technic logo brings, why are you mad at me for not wanting your rebadged cookie cutter factory superOEM?
Summing up — it’s not about the numbers. It’s all about people, their perceptions, and their perspectives. It always has been, and always will be. And once you understand that, you can happily go about your DJing life and not give a crap about what other DJs use. Because in the scheme of things, it absolutely does not matter one little bit to your music choice and ability to do what DJs do.
so when technics released the gae they said its a audiofool turntable. but it had a 16% pitch… how many audiofools listen to their music in such high pitch???
now the mk7 is released with the same feature set as the gae and suddenly its a dj turntable.
if technics had released the mk7 at the same time as the gae then they could use the comeback hype.
because the they took so long for the mk7 a lot of potential customers looked around. some bought cdj and ditched dvs,standalone is very durable, some bought super oem and some bought rane 12’s. a big number still got mk2’s and the documentation, service manuals and know how is accessible in the case of a repair.
dvs user have now the choice of buying rane 12’s or phase and reduce the potential failing needles and feedback.
the clubs are ruled by cdj and pure vinyl dj are rare. where would you buy new tunes anyway, if you are a working club dj which only uses vinyl ?? the relevance of turntable in clubs is not the same as it was back in 2010.
who knows how the quality of the new mk7 compares to the mk2 is?
maybe the mk2 are better build, they have more weight and a analog pitch. how many bits wide is the resolution of the mk7 pitch.
mk7 are made in malaysia when allen & heath or rane relocated its production, the quality was not same anymore.
its like technics is back with an great limousine but most people are now driving SUV’s.
another analogy. technics is back at the party with a barrel of beer but everybody is already passed out with shots of vodka.
The Mk7 was promoted as a Dj version…I’m not comparing the Reloop and Technics, they are 2 different things…We just had the expectations of the Ultra Pitch being added to the MK7, the new specs mean nothing….Most of the innovation has come from the Scratch Arts/Turntablists who keep the creative juices flowing and put the man hours of practice time…Those Mix Djs that think the Ultra Pitch is niche for the Scratch Nerds are misinformed and it’s why that feature wasn’t added imo…..Based on what I’ve read from Technics and how the release has been pushed, they still have a chip on their shoulder….The 78rpm button is for Record Collectors and the Reverse feature is not very intuitive to engage imo…….The +-%50 pitch is now a standard for Artists…I could take the time and break it down for those of you that don’t understand why but I won’t…Buy the book…….Part of the problem imo is that they see Djs killing it with regular 1200s and assume they do not need the +-50%, big mistake on their part….Even the simple Ground post, they could have added another Screw or ground post for the user to be able to internally ground the turntable themselves with wire…Simple solution but they didn’t fully commit to this MK7 being a DJ release so it overlooked the obvious…….That 1500 they just dropped is excellent and that is for record play…At this point in time I am starting to wonder if the ruggedness of the original 1200s came from the chassis design. It protected the electronics from shock, very little flexing from the circuit boards and is a giant heat sink…This new design is lighter because it’s a fiberglass hybrid? hmmm going to have to keep an eye that…As it applies to manufacturing, making things lighter is usually to save on shipping costs ;-)…..As I keep pointing out, Instruments can help or inhibit performance, it can promote growth or stagnate creativity…In this case, it keeps it as it is being that not much change was made….Imho I don’t care how fresh you are on a Turntable without Ultra Pitch, I know for the a fact it limits the future potential of the Artist…On a side note, that picture of the Technics mixer printout worries me too :-)..It only has a 2 band EQ, if they release a new Technics mixer with a 2 band EQ it will verify that they don’t have a clue…
Hi Focus,
Let`s band together to stop all this “againofaders” nonsense. I`m guessing that you as sick of it as I am.
Not sure what you mean. Life is energy movement there is not stopping anything….If you got connections and deep pockets let’s make it happen haha :-) Otherwise your one of a million that has asked me to do something and expect me to do all the work and open doors ;-)… I’m on the FB Mod Group and have always had futuristic funk designs. Some from the Golden Age of Turntablism and finally the time has come for them…In this case seeing the Mk7 with no +-50% is a bit irritating. Mainly because the Technics became the instrument we adapted to use, the feel and dimensions etc…It doesn’t need to have all these extra blinking lights and buttons, as an instrument which is what they claim it is, the Instrument Players require a few more features. A major disappoint from Technics and any of the Artists / Djs that were involved to make this happen…Djs,Promoters and Bloggers suck at design but all seem to think they are visionaries or something :-)…My educated opinions come from a place of wanting to see the Arts flourish…Designs can inhibit or promote growth…
Speaking out against the, “blind followerism” that`s part of the againofader craze, is a good start
Ahh word, I can be pretty vocal about stuff, when I came out of exile and started interacting with the Scratch nerdom I had more fire…I can honestly some improvements were made and things released because of my activism. Now, I’m a bit more on the choose your battles, the fader wars are over, mainly waiting on the scene/culture to catch up :-)…It is starting to be a little to trendy for me though, what inspires me is the freshness that is the Turntable/Scratch Arts…It is a new art form, still in the baby stages and there is more room for innovation…This Technics was a big disappointment being that a key features/features are missing. I am looking at it from a perspective of things that will benefit the whole culture, now and in the future…There are more parts to the +-50% beyond the pitch range it gives you…Let’s see how NAMM unfolds…
As far as industry precedent goes, there’s no shortage of evidence that jog wheels are no longer essential
Great article. As a mix DJ that plays mostly vinyl with a soft spot House Techno and dnb the Technics for me is what I am drawn to. If I am honest with myself the aesthetic and the legacy are probably the most important factors along with the knowledge that I am getting something that I know has a high level of quality. The Reloop would have 10 innovative features that are completely lost on me. I don’t need performance pads, dials and screens. That said, there are people looking for the latest and the most forward tech and for them a 1200 would not make sense to them at all.
MK7 is for Club and Mixing DJ’s.
RP-8000MK2 is for Turntablists.
I for one will be purchasing both. We’ve always had two turntables setups in the house, and these will both be an upgrade for each setup.
im a turntablist and the MK7 is better for me since i dont need midi and DVS.
So you constrain all of your music to only composers who release vinyl?
You have been missing out on so much amazing music, for DECADES.
I must say, this was one of the best articles I’ve read on DJWORX.
People always speak about reliability and tend to connect it to reputation, but the reality is that all things will fail. Like any consumer product, quality determines if it’ll fail sooner or later than expected, but part of reliability is how the user treats the unit, be it a car, PC computer, and etc. The best indicator for quality are peoples’ long term reviews that testify if a product stands the test of time, but reputation isn’t something I personally rely on.
Among my arsenal of controllers and DJ gear, I’ve been using an American Audio VMS4 for at home sessions, had it for 10 years, used it weekly, and it works perfectly fine. I expect it to be fine for another 10 years.
Overall, company reputation? Meh. People’s opinion based on company reputation? Meh.
Peoples’ overall reviews stating that “it works, has been working, and little to no problems?” probably the best indicator to making a decision. Thorough reviews are also very helpful, as if someone is investigating and comparing a product to competition.
Mine… (one of four)
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c83f7a854a1f429999da713b98b1dced25be4ed85817c408728543602913dbb7.png
It’s got to be at least 30 years old, and still going strong.
Gotta love longevity man.
people always buy for the feeling. technics work hard to achieve the best quality of their products without changing the feeling. unfortunately, the market builds on the culture of the 80s, when the dj culture began to emerge. Today, of course, is very different and the question is what do new djs want to invest? soon virtual hosts will take over the market and many controls or turntables will fall into the shelf because people cannot use them
The SuperOEMs weakest point is their loose tonearms 90% of them have that problem coming straight out of the factory because the employers at Hanpin dont do proper check ups.
At the end of the day the turntable with the best build quality wins not the ones with the most features. 899 seems a good price. If i had the RP8000MK2 i would sell it asap to those who like flashy knobs.
90%? This is not my experience. Can you provide hard evidence to back up your claim?
I actually bought 2 OEMs and after a week the bearings started to feel loose i couldnt fix it cause the top tonearm screws were too tight to move. And i would lose warranty if anything gets damaged trying to force the screws.
OEM isn’t a product number or brand name to be aware of or avoid.
It is an acronym simply meaning Original Equipment Manufacturer.
There are qualitative differences even from *known* brand names with different levels of the same base product.
e.g. The Midas M32 and the Behringer X32 both use the same base from the same ODM/OEM manufacturer.
Each vendor/brand then does additional tweaks.
You can see, *see* (not even measure with more than the naked eye) qualitative differences in how the faders operate. The Midas has better quality control, and a higher price tag to match that.
As it stands Cutvusion, your writing is extremely critical, and extremely imprecise.
Not a good combination, like using a grenade instead of a sniper rifle, you create an enormous amount of collateral damage to comprehension and mutual intelligibility with such reckless use of language.
If Sarah Sanders posted on here, she’d make a claim like that.
Lol!
I did actually find this, poking around at decks at various bpm exhibits. I felt like most of the decks i poked around at needed the bearings setting up. The Audio Technica most of all.
I wouldn’t trust exhibit gear at all for getting a real representation of a shipping product in normal use. Even if you look at CNC vendor trade shows such as IMTS, even vendors like HAAS selling $300,000+ CNC mills have to do maintenance on the showroom floor every few hours because of how trade show users abuse their products.
“the best build quality wins not the ones with the most features…”
Dude did you not actually read the article?
I read about 10% as i was busy doing a mix show
Wow, you must be a real DJ then.
Exactly! What more can I say, awesome article. On that note, I will gladly keep rocking on my M3D 1200’s. No need to spend $2400 for a new set. Maybe a set of Rane Twelves in the future.
One of the best article, on this topic, I read since I remember internet born.
Indeed, superb work Mark!
That’s very kind of you to say. Thanks very much. :)
You may be preaching to the choir of turntable geeks, but that is why we are reading this stuff.
Albeit, I have shot on my friends’ Hasselblads already. I am not a shutterbug, geeze, talk about overpriced equipment. Pentax is probably the Reloop equivalent in that realm. Canon being the market dominator and Nikon folks being more like Vestax fans? I dunno, I am not a shutterbug, hard to draw false equivalencies. ;)
Similarly, I play other traditional instruments. I weep over the prices of Bach and Musikinstrumentherstellers Schagerl horn prices, but at the level I am looking, they’re basically all custom brass and about $6,000 a horn. ;-/
I have bought cheaper horns, they were let downs. So I can grasp the notion of some DJs who were spoiled on some nice turntables and not wanting cheaper ones.
The Reloops, do not feel cheap to me. Far from it.
Albeit, I am, per your article more of the “For them, it’s the features that count. That could be any logo on there.”
Seriously. fsck brands. Fsck marketing. fsck capitalism.
There are open source 3D printed turntables, for real e.g.: https://medium.com/@LastZactionHero/my-open-source-3d-printed-record-player-60d6637e7e25
It’s 2019, so of course. That isn’t even new, years old.
Add on an open source ESC such as VESC http://vedder.se/2015/01/vesc-open-source-esc/ for precise motor control, or maybe even forgo that for a fully open source servo motor such as an ODrive or Mechaduino and you have a lot of the building blocks for the platter underpinnings.
Add on a CNC to mill out the rest of the parts and you’re done! Just… some untold amount of hours and materials costs later. ;)
Really though, a fully open source, DJ focused, direct drive turntable, would actually be cool I think. I have open source operating systems, and laptops, but vinyl is still closed and proprietary? Why?
Not for any good reasons that I can observe. It’s 2019. By 2020, the Olympics are occurring in 東京 as prophesised in アキラ in 1988, but where are the open source laser turntables such as an ELP with a direct drive instead of a belt drive?
The technology to create such a thing exists.
The patents, have expired.
The open source, direct drive, laser optical pickup turntable, is still a pipe dream for now.
But uhh, SL-1200MK7 to die hard Technics brand fascists! I mean, loyalists! Yay?
Agree with the article. I’m in the Technics camp, because I play 80s vinyl, mixing with little embellishments for fx. My needs are far simpler, and the Technics is more authentic to the feeling, experience and spirit of the 80s era which i try to recapture every time I mix. I also do DVS but that’s just secondary.
Oh i get it, apples and oranges. Clever :)
It would just be friggin nice to be the first and only owner of a pair of brand new techs lol just so you know exactly what it’s been through because they’re your babies. I’ve only owned second hand (they are a little beat up but of course still running strong).
New product idea…
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3855f3c3dd1adaee2f0464d3a4b062855b16b6801d429031be305dbe7b6eb787.jpg
The question is, are the MK7 up to the same build quality as the old versions or is Technics just trying to monetize the brand and the actual MK7 are also superoems built in Hanpin? DJworx please unscrew one of MK7s to see the insides!
To be clear — they’re not superOEMS. These are built in Malaysia and not China. And the chances of Technics sending us the MK7s is pretty much nil. We’re too thorough with our reviews, and they definitely wouldn’t want me pulling one apart and posting pictures. Somebody will though, but they will almost certainly have bought one first.
Knowing that they are manufactured in Malaysia is still important to know.
This is the “budget” Technics.
If you want to support the Japanese manufacturers, you need to step up your game. They do still manufacture some turntables in Japan, not the SL-1200MK7.
e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYT9y6WqMm8 on the SL-1200GAE/G manufacturing process.
The worst thing I ever did was sell a pristine set of 1200’s and buy a set of Oem turntables. Though strong motor Oem’s are good for the Serato scratch dj / Turntablist, a lot of them suck at playing real vinyl. They can’t seem to make a decent tone arm between them. Technics can. Though the Reloops are probably the best and most reputable deck, especially for the Turntablists, they probably won’t have the quality feel of the MK7’s. Especially in the tone arm dept. I’d like to seem them though. Lastly, I have my turntables in my living room and they’re a ‘feature’ of the room. There’s something too gaudy about the Reloops, all those colourful buttons. Surely there’s enough buttons and controllability on the mixer?
the tonearm from technics was nothing special. the best tonearm for djs were made by vestax e.g.PDX-2300 MK2
you dont know what youre talking about…those Vestax ones are no good for vinyl. Technics tonearns have high standards.
Depends on the Technics. Not all SL-1200 models have the same tonearm.
I have an SL-1200MK4 which has a magnesium alloy tonearm.
The MK7? Does not look like an upgrade to me, quite the opposite.
I learned a similarly painful lesson giving away two CDJ-1000MK2s to Lotus Drops who wanted some CDJs.
Not that I regret giving them away! I regret that I didn’t have suitable replacements before I gave them away.
Better to not give things away unless you have something else you prefer *first*.
Some people (Crate Diggers Jaguar Skillz episode comes to mind) or situations may necessitate selling what you already have before getting something new. Better to keep what you have, get something new, then decide if you want to sell what you already had.
I have currently, three mixers. Only one has buttons, and they are only default usable in Traktor, and I have used Traktor, and I am not committed to it. So, no, your postulate about compatibility on the mixer is not accurate. This is where brands attempt to vie for loyalty, and they aren’t going to get mine, ever. Or, they all get me to sample them, so they all win? I don’t know. I am poor and my credit card yells at me in my dreams, so my loss remains their gain I suppose.
The one downside to the buttons on the turntable, in theory, would be playback stability? (e.g. like someone bumping the table, needle skips)
In practice, this hasn’t been an issue for me even on the older RP-8000s and RP-8000mk1 models. I have no reason to believe the RP-8000MK2 will be worse.
Strangely enough I am in neither camp. I just mix 2 songs back to back with a little scratching here and there. I own 2 RP-8000s because they are a better turntable with better torque, cue points and a straight tone arm. They are just a better product at a better price tag and that’s all it is.
the reloops are no better did you ever read the specs? SN ratio of +50 DB?…thats a joke no club wants tbat.
Given that the Reloops are first and foremost a Serato DVS deck, as long as the timecode signal is delivered cleanly into Serato DJ Pro, then the S/N ratio becomes the domain of the computer, audio interface, mixer, and sound system. The staging will have more of an effect that the input source in this case.
Even at 55dB, I suspect you’ll struggle to hear any noise playing regular vinyl, especially if the sound tech in the club knows their craft. Technics hasn’t quoted any S/N ration specs for the new 1200MK7 anyway. At this point we have no idea if the preamps are cheaper and thus have a lower spec than the 78dB quoted on older models.
Can you provide any real world evidence that any DJ turntables have problems with signal to noise ratios? Everything I’m reading says that anything above 50dB is more than enough, even for audiophile listening.
Please. The RP-8000’s have 4.5 kg.cm of torque, while the 1200’s only have 1.5 kg.cm.
Removable power cables, removable RCAs, no grounding wire, inbuilt pre amps, built-in software control. Basically in every way the RP-8000’s are better. I started out on 1200’s like everybody else who started DJing in the 90’s. Basically every piece of technology has gotten better in the past 30 years, turntables included, I just moved with the times.
And seeing how 99.9% of DJs will be using DVS you’re SN ratio whine is meaningless.
There is nothing wrong with 1200’s, just like a classic car has more romance attached to it than a modern one, but modern ones have much better specs.
The Reloop ones are fugly… What Technic ones are is not just a bunch of features, is sexyness. And the good old just vinyl feeling.